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Michael Vaughan
Discussion started by Angell Face , 17 March, 2014 10:51
Michael Vaughan
Angell Face 17 March, 2014 10:51
BBC website tells me that MV has described Jonathan Trott's departure from the Ashes series as a "con". Discuss!!

Re: Michael Vaughan
Clarence Parker 17 March, 2014 12:02
“There is a danger we are starting to use stress – related illness and depression too quickly as tags for players under pressure.”

I most certainly agree with Michael Vaughan on this.

[www.telegraph.co.uk]

Re: Michael Vaughan
AGod 17 March, 2014 12:16
I certainly agree with Vaughan's points about Trott's technique versus fast bowling.

Only the very best can get away with an initial forward press against high class fast bowling (i.e Viv).

As for the rest of Vaughan's comments, I cannot really see how he has enough knowledge/information about this to be able to make these comments.

Re: Michael Vaughan
Frome Exile 17 March, 2014 12:33
Trott has, in the article linked elsewhere by Bagpuss, distanced himself from any suggestion of stress-related "illness" and has been very frank about the fact that his techniques was shot to bits because he was simply "burned out".

I am afraid that my respect for Vaughan wanes almost by the day.

Re: Michael Vaughan
AGod 17 March, 2014 13:01
So far as I'm aware, based on nothing more than watching him, Trott has always had a pronounced initial forward press i.e I don't think it's only something that crept in to his game because he was putting himself under too much pressure or "burned out".

I don't think it's something that has caused him regular problems in the past simply because, in modern Test cricket, batsmen seldom face bowlers of genuine high pace i.e. those right up around 90 mph +.

No doubt, other technical gremlins may also have crept into his game due to burn-out, though.

Re: Michael Vaughan
Frome Exile 17 March, 2014 13:18
His technique was good enough to average 89 in the 2010/11 Ashes, in which Australia's leading wicket taker was one Mitchell Johnson.

Re: Michael Vaughan
edinburghbil 17 March, 2014 14:17
I still think the decision to hold back to back Ashes was really dumb. I think the media circus around the ashes makes that too much to ask. Put a struggling player under that pressure and something is going to break. To be fair MJ wasn't half the bowler he is now, mostly because he was only accurate in occasional bursts. He seems a real handful right now. Look how the SA batsmen struggled against him. I suspect he is destined to bowl on a lot of dead tracks away from home for a while now.

Re: Michael Vaughan
AGod 17 March, 2014 14:20
.. and, indeed, the tracks for the Ashes series before last, the one to which FE alludes, were also - Perth apart - mainly slow and dead...

The Aussies managed to get a bit more life and pace into some of their tracks this time around.

I think the back-to-back staging of the Ashes contributed to much of juvenile behaviour that we saw from both sides.

Re: Michael Vaughan
Angell Face 17 March, 2014 15:18
Interesting set of reactions. I'm with FE on this one. Whatever the nature of Trott's problem, I find it distasteful, to put it mildly, for Vaughan to call it a "con". I'm afraid I find myself disagreeing with most of what he writes and says.

Re: Michael Vaughan
Grizzers 17 March, 2014 15:43
There may be a debate to be had re what is & isn't mental illness, but using words like "con" won't help anyone.

Agree entirely with EB re the daft decision to have back to back Ashes series as well.

Hope it never happens again.

Grizzzly

Re: Michael Vaughan
Grockle 17 March, 2014 16:50
Surely it has nothing to do with what the managing authorities tag the problem as but what the player says the problem is. It's not for the cricketing powers to define whether something is stress related or not.

I suggest they leave that to the medical professionals and then there will be no accusation of some kind of 'con'



(Sm72)

Re: Michael Vaughan
AGod 17 March, 2014 17:16
I suppose the problem is that the cricketing authorities understandably feel that they need to make some of statement on the issue.

I suspect one problem here is that said authority told the media that Trott was going home, due to "stress", and that some people in the media (M P Vaughan presumably being one of them) automatically associated the term "stress" with "depression".

Re: Michael Vaughan
Frome Exile 17 March, 2014 17:24
I'm afraid Vaughan's statement that "He was struggling for cricketing reasons and not mental - and there is a massive difference" is utterly moronic. A player's form and his mental state are surely far more inextricably linked than this crass statement would have us believe, and Vaughan should know that.
In fact I'm sure he does know that, which makes me suspect that there is a deeply cynical reason for his stance on this matter.
His mention of Root in the same piece makes me wonder whether he fears that his chosen one might be in competition with Trott for a single place at some time soon?

Re: Michael Vaughan
Grockle 17 March, 2014 17:27
Is Vaughan commercially linked to the career of Root?



(Sm72)

Re: Michael Vaughan
Frome Exile 17 March, 2014 17:47
I think he might be, but was not confident enough in that belief to state it.

Re: Michael Vaughan
Wickham 17 March, 2014 18:21
The key point, so far as I am concerned, is that if Trott was suffering from exhaustion (and I have no reason to doubt that he was), it would not have been possible for him to have functioned in anything like an effective manner. Exhaustion is not something from which he could have recovered in a short period of time. As (I think) the team doctor said at the time, if he had been in a "normal" job, the doctor would have signed him off for three weeks.

I share FE's disappointment at Vaughan's comments.

Re: Michael Vaughan
chunkyinargyll 17 March, 2014 19:45
If Vaughan was a poster on this site he would be labelled as a troll.

I don't think Jonathan Trott was ever described as 'depressed' He was described as having a stress related illness, which is not the same thing. Stress does indeed mean mentally and physically exhausted, and he has said he wasn't sleeping, and quite simply couldn't focus and concentrate on a cricket ball coming towards him at 90mph. That's not the same thing as being out of form, and a rest was needed. Nor is it depression.

Why does Vaughan feel 'conned' It doesn't matter what he thinks anyway.

Re: Michael Vaughan
SheptonPaul 17 March, 2014 21:19
Vaughan's done himself no favours here - suspect he thought other England players would be on his side, but from what I've heard I think they'll prefer Trott's side. Hoggard has agreed with Vaughan, but my reading is that he's gone on second-hand gossip and not what was actually written.

Trott 1 Vaughan 0 in my book...

Re: Michael Vaughan
AGod 17 March, 2014 21:34
In perhaps the least surprising statement of the year, Trott has opined that 'Giles fully deserves to be the England coach.'

Not exactly an unbiased view..

Re: Michael Vaughan
Bagpuss 18 March, 2014 10:30
I haven't seen the Trott interview (no Sky) but Interesting that apparently Trott asked that the England team doctor be interviewed as part of the Sky programme, but the ECB blocked this.

Re: Michael Vaughan
Frome Exile 18 March, 2014 11:17
Interesting blog here, about how, at various times in his career, including "that" over against Shoaib Akhtar, Tendulkar used a significant forward press, as the best means of countering extreme pace.

Edited for typos.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/03/2014 11:20 by Frome Exile.

Re: Michael Vaughan
AGod 18 March, 2014 11:40
I think the very best can succeed with it, a la Viv.

And that's not to say that Trott does not have a very sound record as a Test player, but when I say very best I put the emphasis on the word "very".

Re: Michael Vaughan
AGod 18 March, 2014 11:57
You are right, FE, it is an interesting blog.

Obviously, the clips seem to be from ODI games when the batsman would primarily be looking to score fairly quickly.

Of note is that fact that Tendulkar is seen (according to the author) to use different techniques against the same bowlers at different junctures e.g there was forward press against Akhtar in one game and then, a few months later against the same bowler, SRT was going back and across.

Trott, it seems to me, tends to use the same basic approach against pretty much all pace bowling and, obviously, it's worked well for him in most instances. But it could be that the predictability of his approach may be part of his issue against the fastest bowlers or, indeed, part of the reason why he has lost form more generally.

Re: Michael Vaughan
geordie moonraker 18 March, 2014 23:42
I do realise that I am a simple and naïve soul but I am definitely with Trott and against Vaughan. If for whatever reason you find that you suddenly can't do the job you've been doing (selling houses, teaching kids) you try harder and work longer. This so often has the opposite effect to that desired and it becomes even more difficult to do your job. Add the little matter of being 1000,s of miles from home, with 50,00o people watching you try to do it (49,000 of whom don't want you to succeed) and knowing it's on world wide TV and the pressure becomes unbearable. That is stress and the only thing to cure it is get a sick note and recuperate and then go back to the estate agency or whatever. Vaughan's milk of human kindness has definitely curdled.

Re: Michael Vaughan
Bagpuss 19 March, 2014 00:18
I haven't watched it but Cricinfo's latest Switch Hit discusses the various reactions to the Trott interviews and has had good reviews itself on Twitter (sadly my broadband speed would give an asthmatic tortoise a run for its money meaning attempts to view video are usually unrewarding)

Re: Michael Vaughan
Wickham 19 March, 2014 08:35
If only it were an asthmatic tortoise, you would be able to cure it, Baggers.

Re: Michael Vaughan
Clarence Parker 19 March, 2014 12:36
I am unable to get rankled in the slightest over Michael Vaughan’s writings, but here is the view of another appearing in the same newspaper today: -


[www.telegraph.co.uk]

Re: Michael Vaughan
Grockle 19 March, 2014 12:48
A much more thoughtful analysis CP and IMHO probably much nearer to the actual situation.

The 'just buck up' brigade possibly need to do a little more research into the effect these things have n the individual.

And as someone pointed out before this article, if your game is shot to pieces you have to go away and rebuild it if possible.



(Sm72)

Re: Michael Vaughan
AGod 19 March, 2014 12:57
As the author suggests it is difficult to imagine Trott easily being able to weather runs of poor form in the future (without again putting himself under too much pressure) unless, perhaps, management are extremely vigilant with him and develop a really intelligent way of dealing with him when he hits a trough of form.


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