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Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
AGod (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 05:49
Clarence - would club higher-ups have had to sign off on DH being released? Sure.

Was it at all likely that, having just appointed MM, they would insist that he work with a coach with whom he did not want to work? No.

Should club higher ups have refused to let Maynard make this decision? No. Having appointed him they had to back him and let him run things his way. Otherwise how to properly evaluate his performance?

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
Clarence Parker (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 09:12
The answer to your second question is an unqualified - YES. In any organisation or business an employer cannot allow an employee to dictate terms as to which employee works alongside him or her.

The answers to your other questions follow suit.

I am not sure anyway that the scenario you paint is the full picture of what happened.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
RadstockRob (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 18:35
The reason Maynard decided he didn't need Dave Houghton's services was because he didn't want a person with greater cricketing knowledge than him on the staff.

We all know what an excellent coach Dave Houghton is and I've had that confirmed by an ex player that benefited from Dave Houghton's skills.

Maynard saw Dave Houghton as a threat so he made an excuse to removed it as soon as he could.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
Tom Seymour (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 19:46
Bigger fool the club for having done so then.

Maynard talks a good line but can't match it up with deeds it seems.

A glass half - empty or a glass half - full?
Regardless, both glasses need filling up.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
AGod (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 20:38
Very possibly, RR.

And then left himself in the post for two full years before turning to Chris Rogers.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
Grockle (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 22:01
But only 'possible' of course Rob. See that thing about management misgivings now AG?

Agree with CP on this one. For whatever reason Dave was not kept and that must have been a CLUB sanctioned decision. Did our batting fragility decrease in his time and then increase again with his departure?

How much was the decision influenced by the Machiavelian Maynard? Well everyone has their opinion on that one. Where did he go?


Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
Scrumper (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 22:43
MM's only ambition was to totally destroy this club.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
Grockle (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 23:08
He's a complicated man Scrumper with varianle levels og ability. Who knows what his motives are.......

Did he have a job description?
Did he set targets?
Did he hit 'em?
Did he review the progress with the teams?

You'd assume those kinda things went on in a well managed organisation.

Or maybe he throws out such mind game mumbo jumbo that he simply bamboozles everyone and they just let him do what he wants with no regulation, monitoring, appraisal or review.


Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
AGod (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 05:15
Grockle - I looked at this the other day.

In the lone DH season SCCC were third in terms of total runs scored in CC1. We were second in runs scored the 2010 season. Not sure who the batting coach was then under Brian Rose but that was Hildreth's annus mirabilis and Tresco was still unstoppable back then.

In every year since DH left we've been either 6th or 7th in CC1 in total runs scored. If I remember rightly we wwre also 5th or 6th in 2011 and 2012 (Brian's final two seasons)

Of course total runs scored is only one way of looking at this and its weakness is that it shows relative rather than absolute strength. It's also affected by whether teams bat first or second (unless they win by an innings teams that bat second only ever score more than 1-6 more runs than the oppo)

For me what distinguishes the DH season from 2013 and all three under Maynard was the relative lack of trademark SCCC collapses.

Angell Face always likes to cite the fact that we were first in batting bonus points in 2015 under MM. But they consisted of big scores on flat-tracks at home - I think probably 80% of the points came at home and there were umpteen useless collapses on our travels and even the odd second innings swoon at home. Of course bonus points only apply to first innings...... and if matches were decided on first innings alone then Mr Maynard's 2017 side would be about to be crowned champions!!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2017 08:01 by AGod.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 06:00
The normal thing to do is appoint a DOC, and leave him to get on with it.

Otherwise you are constantly questioning his ability, and authority.

So- You let him get on with it, let him take responsibility for every decision he makes (good or bad) and if you are happy with his performance you keep him, and if you're not, you don't.

So- Maynard way want to release X, Y and Z, and yes, people higher up would gave to agree, but normally you would accept the DOC's recommendations without question. If he thinks X isn't worth a new deal, why would you saddle him for another year or two with someone he doesn't want?

I'm sure all key playing decisions are Maynard's. If not, they should be. Does he fully agree Marcus T is worth another contract? If the answer is 'No' then someone is undermining him. You let the DOC get on with it. If things go right, he gets the praise. If things go wrong, he gets the sack. Once others start getting involved in decisions, more than one person becomes 'responsible' for shortcomings, plus you've given the DOC a ready made excuse- 'That was your decision, not mine'.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
Grockle (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 06:44
Then if you let MM 'get on with it' then either SCCC are happy with his plan and activity, are too weak to stop him wreaking mayhem across the club or he 'talks excellent BS'

He's been here a while now.... are you suggesting that DoC's answer to no one year on year?.


Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
Nailsea_Fizz (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 07:09
So is there any factual proof apart from a statistical anomaly in 2011 that DH made any difference.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
sandhills (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 07:16
I maybe wrong but not sure DH was here in 2010 11 or 12. Think it was Rose and Hurry! Sorry if I miss-read,?

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 07:30
Grockle- The point is the moment someone else gets involved in cricketing decisions, if those decisions turn out to be bad decisions you then have a second person who is partly to blame- and if that is the same person who will hire or fire the DOC then he is going to be less likely to fire DOC.

Most people wouldn't like it if they were told they had complete responsibility in one area, and then their boss constantly questioned every decision, and even overruled some of their decisions. You let the DOC do it his way- discuss things by all means, but let him make the final decision. That way, if he is right, it has to be a good thing. And- if he turns out to be wrong, you can say, 'I told you that wasn't a good idea' But the DOC must get his own way- because it is his reputation, and his job on the line if things go badly.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
AGod (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 07:53
You mis-read, Sandhills.

DH season was 2014. I just didn't lable it as such in my post. I said we finished third in runs scored in the DH season, and that we had been second in the 2010 tie with Notts season.

All other recent seasons, SCCC have been in the bottom third in total runs scored.

Correction: I mistakenly said that MM's first season was 2014, when it was 2015.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2017 08:01 by AGod.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
AGod (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 07:58
Chunky - those are my thoughts entirely.

It would be daft to appoint MM and then tell him that he cannot choose his own batting coach (although, having said that, I do think that I would have expressed strong concerns to him about any proposal to do the job himself viz spreading himself too thinly).

You appoint your person. You let him run things his way. You give him some time to do so. And then you reach a verdict on his overall performance and respond accordingly.

If you do anything other than the above then you cannot objectively assess your DoC's performance - you cannot isolate the responsibility for the decisions that pan out and those that don't.

In my opinion, Maynard was wrong to have DH removed. But the higher-ups, having elected to appoint Matthew, were right to let MM run the cricket side of the show.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2017 08:32 by AGod.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
AGod (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 08:11
Overall, the obvious difference between the DH season in 2014 and the one that preceded it (DN season one) and the three that have followed it under MM, is the absence of absolutely lame batting performances away from Taunton.

Here are the away scores made under Houghton in 2014:

Hove: 372 (on a very difficult track) - Somerset won by an innings.

Durham: 185 and 246-4 - Match drawn. On almost every other occasion that I remember (apart from 2010) SCCC have folded like a cheap suit at CLS with the bat. Both Onions and Rushworth played this one, so this wasn't about an abnormally below strength attack.

Edgbaston: 411 in rain-ruined draw

Old Trafford: 420 in rain-ruined draw but Lancs followed-on

Trent Bridge: the one game that went wrong - the controversial toss game. I was there. From memory so were Grockle and Bagpuss. 168 and 402 - lost by seven wickets. But at least made a hell of a fight of it in the second knock.

Uxbridge: 264 and 203-4 - easily batted out a draw

Wantage Road: (the horrible CK game) : 375 and 249-8 - Somerset won the match.

Headingly: 437 & 151-9 -- match drawn

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
AGod (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 08:18
And here are your numbers for the years one year either side for batting away from flat home tracks (as they still generally were then).. the grisly 2013 season under DN and very poor 2015 season under Maynard:

Maynard 2015:

New Road: 250 and 90 (disgraceful!) -- LOST badly

Leeds: 110 and 155 (pathetic) -- LOST badly

Edgbsaton: 265 and 170 (not very good) -- LOST badly

Hove 438-4 dec (vs 409) - fine. Draw

Trent Bridge - 312 and 161 - won easily

Northwood: 197 and 147-7

Hedge End: 346 and 64-1 - won by nine wickets

CLS: 225 and 158 - not great, heavily beaten.

We see, above, a pattern of too many heavy defeats caused by very poor batting totals and, especially a tendency to fold in the second innings of these games.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2017 08:28 by AGod.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
AGod (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 08:24
And, now, Nosworthy's wonderful first season when, I assume, he coached the batsmen himself, a la Maynard (2013)

Derby: 216 and 145-6 (the lone win in the first half of the season.)

CLS: 132 and 186 - lost.

Lord's (the great win) - 449 - won by an innings, with Chawla ton.

Trent Bridge: 372 and 101-1

Oval: 384 and 251-9

Horsham: 76 and 108 (one of the most disgraceful performances in club history)

Edbaston: 340 and 255 - drawn

Headingley: 252 and 61-6 (a gormless performance in which we lost 16 wickets on the final day and would obviously have lost the match but for earlier rain) (Yorks made 505-9)

So, perhaps this Nosworthy season wasn't quite as bad as I remembered, not as inept away as Maynard's first one, but still pretty poor and obviously worse than the DH season.

Edited to add that this season also included on particulary pathetic home innings, in which we scored 103 vs Derbyshire.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2017 08:30 by AGod.

Re: So here's a bit of Clarity
Grockle (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 08:32
Now all you have to do is show that DH had such an amazing approach that these differences were primarily down to him and we are home free.

How come in all this then that the criticism is directed at MM entirely. Am I wrong in saying that a further batting coach was appointed (via some higher level pressure I believe) to oversee some part of the 'non Houghton' years?

Where is the blistering criticism of him?

I think David suffers a little from the Jimi Hendrix syndrome of getting out early. But I can't really say on one season myself.


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