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RRANDREWS
Dom Win Win?
Old Boy! (IP Logged)
09 May, 2019 08:38
Congratulations to Dom Bess for going somewhere where his talent will be welcomed. The one month loan to Yorkshire will, IMO become permanent. The mystery to me is why Jason thinks it is a win win situation. He rightly says that Dom needs to be playing first team cricket. However, as the guy who picks Somerset's first team, it was down to him. IMO Bess will make a great name for himself, and it will be seen as another mistake by Somerset to let a young talent go without a fight. Without the Leach/Bess combination I can't see us winning the Championship this year.
I suppose the only hope is to pray that I've got it wrong.
Old Boy!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2019 19:46 by Grockle.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Win Win?
Grockle (IP Logged)
09 May, 2019 12:25
Tell us where you would put him OB! and who is not performing well enough to provide for him. What are his credentials for taking that place this year?

I think I agree with you that this loan may turn into a permanent departure but he will have to perform well. If that is the case we can fight for the return of our effective spinning batsman with some matches behind him and incorporate him in.

He presently, unfortunately, isn't knocking down doors for a place and a change may be as good as a rest for his career. It may be that is elsewhere if so.... so be it.



(Sm72)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2019 13:54 by Grockle.

 
Angell Face
Re: Win Win?
Angell Face (IP Logged)
09 May, 2019 12:30
If a county is successful in developing young talent to the point where they are challenging for a first team place, and I think that Somerset have been successful in recent years, you are always likely to have a situation where a player is disappointed with a lack of first team opportunities. Few counties play two spinners regularly and Leach is the man in possession. I am not in favour of including a player in the first team just because he might take himself off to another county. That simply means that another player who should be in the team gets left out. In spite of having played two tests, and done pretty well, Bess is still young and relatively inexperienced. He will get his chances with Somerset, particularly if Leach gets in the England team. And can I ask Old Boy to tell us who this young talent is that we "let go without a fight?" Hose and Meschede perhaps and how are they getting on at their new counties?

 
RRANDREWS
Re: Win Win?
Old Boy! (IP Logged)
09 May, 2019 13:19
I hope you guys are right and I am wrong. My main point is that in red ball games I would first find a reason why we should not have a balanced attack with 2 good spinners rather than feeling we must have the military 3 or 4 seamers. In white ball stuff invariably those teams using two spinners rather than mandatory speed merchants have the best results. A ball delivered at 80-90 mph gets to the boundary in 80-90 mph while spinners Have to be struck.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Win Win?
Grockle (IP Logged)
09 May, 2019 13:42
I'd like to see the best eleven players on the pitch playing to our strengths and April CC1 games don't scream 2 spinners.

I've always thought that a 2 spin option is always easier when one spinner offers something else. At T20 level Max offers sometimes unbelievable fielding prowess.

At white ball level your spinner has to take wickets or offer more than RvdM.

At red ball level the second spinner has to bat to play regularly. Dom can bat but where is the urgency to prove that? He showed it after being left out at Worcester last year but in 2019?

Have his bowling performances put him in pole for a spinning place?

Have his batting performances suggested a dual role?

Why is Azhar bowling in one dayers and Dom is on loan?

Well maybe the figures speak for themselves. Dom may be a better spinner than Azhar or Arul were but a better bet as a batsman?

I hope this helps him consolidate. It's the Craig Meschede situation again. If you want to be seen in a different light rack up the figures and then stand by them. Craig went to try and didn't so he moved to where there was a gap.

Dom may have to try for a first spinner place and get there on wickets taken. He is certainly in second place to Jack in that regard at Taunton presently. He may have to go and plough his own wicket furrow elsewhere in a place where competition is not so brisk.



(Sm72)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2019 13:58 by Grockle.

 
wsm fan
Re: Win Win?
wsm fan (IP Logged)
09 May, 2019 15:28
Dom is in the 14 tomorrow.

Surrey 11 plus Ben Dom Timmy

 
AGod
Re: Dom Win Win?
AGod (IP Logged)
09 May, 2019 15:30
The problem is being on notice for a points deduction, meaning that we will no longer prepare pitches that heavily favour the slower bowlers. That means that we only tend to have one place in the side for a spinner. However, I would argue that two spinners is often a good idea on flat wickets, too (not just on bunsens). It's true that this year's red ball has a less prominent seam than in years past and that fact, combined with the facts that we're not going to prepare green top seamers that we'd be guaranteed to have to bat first on and we're not going to prepare bunsesns, rather lead me to think that we may see some *very* flat pitches in Taunton this season...

.... In which case two spinners rather than one may be a good idea, if for no other reason than reducing wear and tear on our seamers.

 
Tom Seymour
Re: Dom Win Win?
Tom Seymour (IP Logged)
09 May, 2019 22:15
I agree with Old Boy on this, because I wouldn't be surprised if we have seen the last of Dom Bess in Somerset colours. I hope I am wrong.

One recognised spinner on the staff is inadequate, especially if he (Leach) may be absent for International calls. Only a few years ago we had Leach, Bess, Waller and a young Scottish off spinner called Leask (I think). I don't include Van der Merwe as an out and out spinner. Despite at the start of every season Waller claimed that he was going to strive to break into the Firsts in the CC, it was never going to happen. 10 First Class wickets in 10 years of playing is proof of that, and now he just has a white ball cricket contract.

We were crying out for years for an off spinner, Leask wasn't the answer and then as if heaven sent along came Dom Bess. From the start he always had something special about him in the way he played the game as a very young man, and although he shaped up very well especially with the bat in his 2 Tests last year, perhaps Test selection came a little early for him. Its not just about age, its how well equipped you are to deal with it and its consequences.

Again I agree with Old Boy that we should field a balanced attack, and in many instances that would include 2 spinners, especially as Dom Bess is a more than capable bat. 3 pace men/ seamers plus Tom Abell and 2 spinners would be my choice on most occasions. If you can't bowl out a side with 5 recognised bowlers, then you aren't going to do it anyway.

We are just left with one recognised spinner on the books, and whilst I agree that Dom needs First team cricket in the red ball game, play him in our team, not let him slide away to Yorkshire. I know that England and Yorkshire captain Joe Root thinks very highly of him, its a shame that Hurry and Kerr don't appear to.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Dom Win Win?
Grockle (IP Logged)
09 May, 2019 22:36
No argument that we could do with some spin competition.

Hope it comes soon and it comes from Dom. Hasn't up to now so maybe WE need to look somewhere else as well if we want a stronger competitive spinner.

The again a month with Yorkshire for Dom could be a wake up call and he will come back hungry.

Presently he still needs to bat because he isn't looking like a wicket taker as much as I hate to say it.



(Sm72)

 
That Bloke With The Dog
Re: Dom Win Win?
09 May, 2019 22:39
We're top of the table thanks to a relentless 4-man pace attack. I seriously doubt whether we would have beaten Kent without all four to choose from, and the same applies to the first innings against Notts.

I suppose Bess might have got a bowl in the second innings against Notts, but apart from that his selection would have been at best pointless and at worst a hindrance.

As for the 50-over stuff, a squad without Bess has got us to the last six. There are plenty of counties who haven't reached that stage and are wondering what went wrong. Perhaps they weren't ruthless enough with their selection. Somerset have been picking players to win the match in front of them rather than to keep the players happy. It's been brilliant.

Don't get me wrong. I love seeing Dom Bess in a Somerset shirt, and I've loved some of his performances in it. But this is a top-of-the-table club now, not a social club.

 
Angell Face
Re: Dom Win Win?
Angell Face (IP Logged)
09 May, 2019 23:11
Like Tom Seymour, I would like to see two spinners in the team (but I'm nostalgic for the days of Horace Hazell and Johnny Lawrence.) Modern wickets generally don't take spin and if we've been crying out for an off spinner we must have been about the only county doing so. I haven't looked through the other counties' list of players but I can't bring to mind an off spinner who has been a regular front line bowler in recent years, though I stand to be corrected on that. Grockle said a few days back that Bess would be well advised to try to improve his batting and there could well be an opportunity for a genuine all-rounder in the middle order in the not too distant future.
Come to think of it, Hazell was slow left arm (very slow sometimes) and Lawrence was a leg spinner.

 
Clarence Parker
Re: Dom Win Win?
Clarence Parker (IP Logged)
10 May, 2019 01:57
Brian Langford and Vic Marks are the only two off spinners of any note that I can recall since the last War, and Vic retired many years ago.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Dom Win Win?
Grizzzly (IP Logged)
10 May, 2019 09:01
Not sure that Dom helped his case by having what appeared to be a rather uninspiring winter.

I too hope to see him back at SCCC soon though.

I’m still unclear whether he could theoretically turn out for us in the RLODC Final,,should we get there of course, whilst being on ‘Championship’ loan to Yorks.?
Grizzzly



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2019 09:02 by Grizzzly.

 
AGod
Re: Dom Win Win?
AGod (IP Logged)
10 May, 2019 17:27
I'd assume, Grizzly, that we will have a recall clause involved in the deal with Yorks.

 
RRANDREWS
Re: Dom Win Win?
Old Boy! (IP Logged)
10 May, 2019 17:58
Whatever happens - on the other thread we have proof that spinners win you matches!
Old Boy!

 
cricketjerry-mouse
Re: Dom Win Win?
cricketjerry-mouse (IP Logged)
10 May, 2019 18:05
Dom Bess, who was fielding as a sub at Worcester today when Azhar took his five wickets, must have felt he has made exactly the right move in seeking first-team cricket with Yorkshire for a month - and possibly longer.

For the first time for Somerset, Azhar look a genuine leggie, baffling his last two victims with googlies and landing two c.and b.s (always the sign of someone turning the ball).

He gives Tom Abell a genuine spin option, alongside Jack Leach, over the next eight championship games, and then Dom can return to the fold when the wickets dry and really start to turn in late summer.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Dom Win Win?
Grockle (IP Logged)
10 May, 2019 18:41
And he is going to need to hone his skill set because I'm pretty certain Azhar will be doing that. You are right CJM we do have some depth and Dom needs to contribute to that after his loan period.



(Sm72)

 
AGod
Re: Dom Win Win?
AGod (IP Logged)
10 May, 2019 23:56
There’s not been all that much rain this season. And the ball has a reduced seam. A lot of runs have already been scored in CC1. I think it would be a mistake to assume that a team should only pick two spinners if a track is a turner. The flatter the track, the greater the need for options and variety, whether that’s pace and bounce of Overtons, or different types of spin (which, yes, could include Azhar’s wrist-spin). There are also plenty of CC1 teams that have a number of LHBs, that off-spinners tend to feast on. If a track is very flat then I don’t think we’d necessarily want more than one of our medium fast - medium options in the starting XI - by which I mean LG, Jack B, Josh or Tim. One of those guys, two spinners and two Overtons would be the right call on something very flat. And don’t be surprised if very flat comes well before the final quarter of the season..

 
cricketjerry-mouse
Re: Dom Win Win?
cricketjerry-mouse (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 11:22
Dom Bess is the only spinner in Yorkshire`s 13-man squad against Kent at Canterbury tomorrow, so looks certain to play.

Joe Root away with England ODI side, though, and he has anchored the Yorkies` championship batting so far this season with a two-match average of 148.50. Will Dom have enough runs on the board to be an attacking rather than a containing bowler?

 
mikeindex
Re: Dom Win Win?
mikeindex (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 12:03
I've always felt distinctly uneasy about the loan system, and part of my objection, specifically to loans within the same division, has just crystallised - namely, even if a player on loan is not allowed to play against his "home" county, his performances are bound to affect their position in the table.
E.g. if Dom has a blinder for Yorkshire next week so they win a match they surely wouldn't won without him, and then they beat us to the Championship by three points?
Does anyone else see this as a reason for grave reservations about the system?
Loans between divisions are not open to this objection (but still make me a bit uneasy, probably just because it's too much like soccer) - but I'll probably be commenting on Jamie on the other thread.

 
Loyal of Lhasa
Re: Dom Win Win?
Loyal of Lhasa (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 12:18
Totally agree.



LoL

Seventy-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter

 
AGod
Re: Dom Win Win?
AGod (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 12:49
No, Mikeindex, I have no objection to the loan system itself. Whether Andy and Jason are wise to give a player to a CC1 rival is possibly debatable but that’s scarcely the fault of the system...

 
Loyal of Lhasa
Re: Dom Win Win?
Loyal of Lhasa (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 13:09
Simple solution: If a player is loaned to a county in the same division as his own, one tenth of any points won by his temporary side will be awarded not to that side but to his home side.

Ho Ho.



LoL

Seventy-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter

 
mikeindex
Re: Dom Win Win?
mikeindex (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 13:11
Doesn't what you're saying, AG, amount to the same as what I'm saying - namely that it is a basic flaw of the system, as any county in the same division is a CC1 (or CC2) rival?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Dom Win Win?
Grizzzly (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 13:34
I also share your views Mikeindex.

Grizzzly

 
AGod
Re: Dom Win Win?
AGod (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 14:02
No, Mikeindex, what I think is that the system is designed, really, to be used to cover for injuries etc, rather than to allow for players so good that they are liable to decide matches to move from one side to another within the same division! If a player moves and turns out to be said game changer then the fault lies with the loaning County for not recognising what they had, IMO.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Dom Win Win?
Grockle (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 14:36
Then what is a spinner to do? They may be skilled but in a side with another skilled spinner so they get less time while another side has none. What if he is loaned to a side that will not push for the title and his presence gives them the chance of beating one of his county's rivals?



(Sm72)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/05/2019 15:38 by Grockle.

 
AGod
Re: Dom Win Win?
AGod (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 15:30
Indeed, Grockle.

It is also reasonable to assume that a player being loaned from one CC1 side to another is unlikely to make a huge impact (if on a short term loan) because the whole reason that anybody would be allowed to go on such a loan would be because some aspect of their ability/form/confidence/fitness was in question in the first place.

There’s also a dressing room to be managed. One imagines that neither Dom nor Jamie (I know Jamie is going to CC2) is thrilled to not be in the first XI picture. I think it better for Andy and Jason to be able to say to such guys ‘If you’re not involved here, we’ll do whatever we can to get you playing first XI cricket elsewhere, rather than leave you to stew in the seconds. Players aren’t daft - they know that there’s a big gap between seconds and firsts and that, as such, it’s hard to make an unimpeachable case for selection off the back of seconds performances. But, should either of our two loan guys suddenly take lots of wkts in first XI cricket then they’re more likely to get back into contention than if they did similar in the seconds.

One final point - and I know this won’t be a popular suggestion, but.....management may want to make new signings this winter. They may, in particular, want to strengthen the top three. Management might decide we have an excess of bowling resources and a relative shortage of batting ones... Eddie and Ben are yet to nail down a place. Marcus is 312. Azhar is here on a year-to-year basis. Tom A doesn’t seem to want to go back up the order... whilst such deals don’t often happen, there’s always the possibility of getting involved in some form of swap deal for a player under contract elsewhere... perhaps at a place where they have an excess of batting, but shortage of bowling... Guys are also more effectively in the shop window if playing firsts than seconds...

 
AGod
Re: Dom Win Win?
AGod (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 15:37
And one other thought: If guys like Bess, Jamie etc are turning out for the twos every week, perhaps alongside guys like Van Meekeren (when fit) and TG (if not in first team squad), then how many places are left for AH, Steve Snell etc to get a look at up-and-coming cricketers? A contract decision on Ollie Sale will need to be made. The hugely promising Nathan Gilchrist needs to get overs. There will be guys to be looked at with a view to taking them onto the Academy (or not) etc

 
Shepton Paul 2
Re: Dom Win Win?
Shepton Paul 2 (IP Logged)
14 May, 2019 13:36
Tom Lace recalled to Middx 1st XI today, having scored two fifties in Div Two for Derbyshire. #relevant

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