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WELCOME TO THE MIDDLESEX ROOM, THE ONLY MESSAGE BOARD ON THE INTERNET DEDICATED TO MIDDLESEX CCC

Winning catch. More of the same at Taunton, please!

 

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Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
Jonathan Winsky (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 08:36
I didn’t think there was much potential for the points deduction to be overturned, and I didn’t think Middlesex deserved it to have been, as the way cricket tends to work is that if a team happens to be in a poor position when a match gets abandoned, then they could lose out accordingly, even if they feel they could have turned the situation around. This is particularly the case in a limited-overs match, when it is a common occurrence for a team to lose under D/L despite believing they could have won had the match not stopped.

I sometimes feel uncomfortable with gaining things I don’t feel I truly deserve, which is why I am doubtful appealing the deduction would be sensible. I know that there have been a few occasions in football when punishments have been increased after someone plainly did wrong and then appealed the initial punishment, so I am relieved we are not going down this route.

If a scapegoat really is needed, then maybe it should be Ollie Rayner, as the downside of his recent late-order 30’s is that we may have been all out on day four at The Oval but for his 52-ball second innings. Had we been all out, we (no doubt with Rayner’s help) would have found the time to sort the over rate out.

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
BarmierKev (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 08:41
I a more than disappointed by this. If we go down by 2 points I can't imagine how even more annoyed I will be.

You have to look at a whole season but being relegated by a stray arrow would be difficult to take.



Barmy Kev
I'm only here for the tele

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 09:02
It's worth remembering that when the match stopped we had only just reached the point were we could justifiably say that we had saved the match.

I'm not sure exactly how many overs were potentially left. At a guess it would have been about 25 overs, and our lead was 181. Not the same as a T20 obviously, longer boundaries, no fielding restrictions, bowl who you want, so we had just saved it. If there had been another day, we might, stress might have got a lead of 250, and even won.

I'm trying to be philosophical, and just be grateful we didn't lose, but umpires saying they will sort it out, but forgetting (understandably- they probably had a lot on their plate) is surely unique. Verbal law of contract and all that. My word is my bond. Things don't have to be written down to be legally binding, but you have the problem (if umpires deny it) of proving any such conversation took place.

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 09:19
One other thing- I'm sure normally points deductions for slow overs are more or less instantaneous (within an hour of end of match) This backs up notion umpires had intended to 'sort it', because it appears deduction was only applied once the umpires match report arrived at HQ.

Anyway, if bowman had fired his arrow a couple of hours earlier people would have accused Strauss of taking up archery to deny Surrey a certain win (an immobile Compton having just arrived at the wicket).

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
adelaide (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 10:20
The ECB has chosen to apply the published playing conditions in this instance. Despite said conditions being silent AFAIK on the question of the ground being under fire.

Exactly. They had a choice and chose to do something stupid and unfair. There are appeal processes outside the ECB (the courts? isn't there some sort of sporting arbitration court somewhere?) but perhaps the club has been advised that either there is no case in law or that it would be costly.

But it is not a case in law that we are talking about here.

It may have been kept quiet while the club was appealing but there is no need to hold back on either barrel now. Media campaign by supporters?


Adelaide

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 10:32
If it wasn't for David Townshend's remark on the commentary yesterday, I would have accepted (reluctantly) the attitude that the ECB shouldn't be in the business of speculating what might have happened if the game had run it's natural course.

But if umpires said they would 'sort it' and forgot, that's another matter.

Final match at Taunton might be a relegation decider- with us ahead on points, and Somerset needing a win to stay up. With this precedent set, there can surely be no problem if we all start firing arrows on the pitch to end the game.

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
adelaide (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 10:57
Chunky

I'm a little reluctant to rely on DT as an unimpeachable source of information, given his capability to spoil a perfectly good commentary. Is there any other source that reinforces this?


Adelaide

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 11:02
not that I'm aware of Adelaide- but that's why I like it.

He may have been 'indiscreet' (Off the record conversation with someone at the club, and casually repeated it).

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
adelaide (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 11:18
Chunky

There is no reaosn for anyone at the club not to be indiscreet about it now!


Adelaide

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
BeefyRoberts (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 11:54
Glad the club published the findings,but myself the ECB decision absolutely stinks.
The game was halted and stopped by the police on SAFETY REASONS and nothing else,not our fault and we have been penalised over someone else's actions.
So,these complete fools that run our wonderful game are giving a clear indication that it's ok to threaten players and watching public and then decide to deduct points when the game didn't finish.
I do realise we do push our luck at times with our over rate,but this was something totally different.
Armed police,the players being told to evacuate the playing area for own safety and the watching public told to take cover......yea,brilliant move ECB.

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
Darren Gosling (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 19:50
I thought the issue of slow over rates was something that has unanimously upset Middx supporters for several seasons now. I'm a little surprised at some people's reactions on here to the 2pt penalty - the same people who have been bemoaning our slow over rate in the past.

No one to blame but ourselves as far as I'm concerned- as has been said on this site numerous times before. We have been over reliant on the great Don Shelley bailing us out far too many times - even the Don could do nothing about the golden arrow....

If we do go down by 2pts then FINALLY the management might actually DO SOMETHING about our slow over rates....

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
BarmierKev (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 09:21
I have to disagree with Darren here to an extent. This over rate issue had been a problem which I amongst others have highlighted.

This season it has been more or less under control. I can't recall any match where we have been in danger of a deduction at the end. When we have strayed we have been able to pull it round quite quickly. I was confident this would have happened at the Oval. However we did not have a chance due to an incident that was a complete freak. Sadly , the ECB are oblivious to this and despite their best efforts our club have been unable to successfully fight it.



Barmy Kev
I'm only here for the tele



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2017 15:22 by BarmierKev.

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 09:53
It's difficult though.

What if 10 overs had been left, and Surrey needed one wicket to win (that wasn't the scenario). Surrey might have said 'We've been denied an extra 11 points (5 for draw, instead of 16 for win), But you couldn't categorically rule out the last two men surviving the last 10 overs- so what are you meant to do then?

I suppose the legal advice was, 'Don't start assuming something would definitely have happened' (even though in this case it definitely would have happened).

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
BarmierKev (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 10:38
I was wondering what would have happened if the incident happened had the game been clearly in one teams favour for a win. It would no doubt be called a draw as we are still in a one against one competitive situation, much to annoyance of one team and relief of other. But hey no one died.

Re over over rate it is down to the bowling team to rectify which can easily done. The opposition have little influence in the outcome.

As I keep saying this is a matter of common sense which the ECB clearly doesn't have. I'm still fuming

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
adelaide (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 11:06
The legal advice would have been unnecessary if the umpires had done what they had apparently said they were going to do. I don't blame them for overlooking that in unprecedented circumstances and I expect they are mortified at what has happened.

I can't say I have felt particularly confident in the over rate situation this season but then I don't get to as many matches as I would like. It is taking a risk if you are down at the end of the first innings; if the last day had been washed out or we'd been skittled we would have been bang to rights, guv. But it wasn't, thus there was no longer any risk - except from arrows.

It is the unprecedented circumstances, that are surely not what the regulations are intended to cover, that seem 100% wrong to me. I see no inconsistency between between taking that position on this and wanting us to keep our heads above water on over rate in both innings.


Adelaide

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
BarmierKev (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 16:15
I have had some communication from the club regarding this matter. To summarise , every effort was made to overturn this but we were unsuccessful with no avenue for appeal.

I remain absolutely furious. However, like the club, I will try to move on and concentrate on Uxbridge. Let's hope no ECB representatives will be present there.



Barmy Kev
I'm only here for the tele

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
Holmegaard (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 18:44
Crazy and illogical decision in my view, to dock us 2 points when the game hasn't run its natural course. Having said that it's typical of the powers that be. I happen to think that, based our dismal performances to date, we can't complain if we get relegated, but to go down on the strength of this decision would be a bitter pill to swallow.

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
12 September, 2017 05:57
Just bowl enough overs an hour to keep that figure in the plus rather than flirting with minus's in the first place and we wouldn't have had this problem.

ECB would have loved any opportunity to stick us with a slow over rate points penalty as we (or rather Don Shelley) are masters of avoiding their deductions for this.

However in an entertainment industry where you guarantee a certain amount of product per hour it is as remiss of us to be behind the rate on such regular occasions as it is of the umpires to "sort it" in this case that we were not deducted.

We got caught out,ECB ain't changing their decision,we need to bowl smarter,we need to accept this and it needs to start from day 1 at Uxbridge v Hampshire (a team rarely if ever troubled by over rates as they just get on with things).

 
Re: -2 You're Having a Laugh
dingy bags (IP Logged)
14 September, 2017 20:27
If tomorrow, the Hants innings is at 180-2 with 10 overs to play and this happened again, would the umpires be able to assume Hants would get a batting point and us a bowling point?

We've been telling the top table for years that we need to get on with things and they just scoff at us. We lose points every year.

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