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Winning catch. More of the same at Taunton, please!

 

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Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
Grizzzly (IP Logged)
04 October, 2017 00:39
Kent were severely p/o'd Chunky.

Grizzzly

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
adelaide (IP Logged)
04 October, 2017 01:22
Kent were hacked off but they did not suffer from the action taken (apart from the long journey north). They just thought that they rather than Hampshire should have been the beneficiaries.

If ECB decisions of any sort at this stage resulted in Somerset being relegated there would rightly be hell to pay. At least returning to an equal split would not actually harm anyone. I think there is an argument that relegating two out of eight is a step too far and encourages negative cricket. The perpetual mid-table logjam makes it worse. Middlesex happen to be the fall guys this time but anyone from three (even two?) to seven could easily have gone.


Adelaide

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
Bagpuss (IP Logged)
04 October, 2017 09:52
Not convinced that if next season is a nine counties per division championship it will be permanent. Wouldn't be surprised I it was another one up, two down (or two up, three down) to restore the 8/10 split for 2019.

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
wembleylion (IP Logged)
04 October, 2017 10:01
I think they will stay with 8 and 10 but have one up and one down so that 25% of the top flight are not relegated each year. Bad news for the lower division with only 10% going up. With the apparent desire to marginalise the County Championship I can see in future years three divisions of six, ten games each one up one down.

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
adelaide (IP Logged)
04 October, 2017 10:44
That would be a good way of expressing the sympathy that Richard Goatley claims the ECB is showing on Arrowgate - make it even harder to get back up in the seasons following our relegation.

Nine and nine might be a stepping stone to a ten/eight split the other way round, I suppose.

But any change in the structure made this late could theoretically run up against the reasoning behind not restoring our points - teams could have approached matters differently if they had known that a draw, rather than a win, was necessary to survival. As it happens it did not apply last year (Durham's penalty) and would not have been this year, thanks to Notts and Warwickshire respectively being so far behind the rest so it could be done without putting noses out of joint but as a general principle teams should know during the season what they are aiming for.


Adelaide

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
Jonathan Winsky (IP Logged)
04 October, 2017 19:23
The fact no-one aside from Dave Fulton seems to have given credibility to the possibility of a return to two divisions of 9 makes me doubtful it will happen.

I was against the idea of the switch to 8 teams in division one and 10 teams in division two, as I (sadly justifiably) feared it would increase the possibility of Middlesex finding themselves in division two. For as long as the divisions remain split like this, I prefer that the amount of teams going up/down to be 2 than 1, as there would be less to play for if there is a big gap between 7th and 8th in division one and/or between 1st and 2nd in division two. Also, I feel that 20% of division two teams getting promoted is preferable to 10%. I (and surely many other county supporters) would prefer division one to be the division with 10 teams! However, that would mean that the main division would find itself with an unbalanced fixturelist.

I think one of the reasons why the balance of the divisions was changed was to make it easier to for the fixtures to be arranged, as it means that several rounds can have all 18 counties playing, whereas having two divisions of 9 meant that at least 1 team from each division had to sit out each round. For some reason, the fixtures computer used to have a habit of not allocating us a match in the final round in some seasons, although this can no longer happen with an even amount of teams in each division.

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
04 October, 2017 19:30
ECB if they decide to move the goalposts so we get to stay up will become an even less thought of organisation within cricket circles than they are at present, you can't go changing the parameters of the league after the season is finished.

Stick to your guns at least,don't go running from the trenches at the threat of the goat, man up or admit you fuĀ£&ed up on your original decision,then relegate Somerset and keep the 8/10 split in place.

Second thoughts,just remain quiet till the fixtures list for next season comes out and Middlesex are in Div 2 (where we should be after last seasons performances).

Not the best of starts to the new guy in charges shift is it? Lavender ? Might get a nickname fairly quickly. "Don't tell him Pike!"

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
AGod (IP Logged)
05 October, 2017 11:19
Somerset, Yorks, Hants and Surrey fans could probably all say that we "should," be in Div Two next season based on the quality or lack thereof of many performances given by these sides last season.

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
adelaide (IP Logged)
05 October, 2017 12:32
Whatever might be done (or not done) at this stage is unsatisfactory because it is a mess, in sporting and quite possibly legal terms. One which could have been avoided if the ECB had had the nous to ask the umpires "are you sure" in an unprecedented situation.

We're told that Somerset CCC have had it confirmed that there will be no deduction for the pitch (fair enough) but there has been no wider announcement of that as far as I know. We have Richard Goatley saying that they are still talking to the ECB and that they are sympathetic, which I suspect means "it's unfortunate, isn't it, now s*d off". Various suggestions that both issues would have been sorted out by last Monday. The (to me unlikely) suggestion that both divisions will have nine teams again next year.

I would suggest that both counties need certainty quickly. After all, it could affect player recruitment and retention.

My suspicion is that the counties have actually got certainty (no pitch deduction, no points reinstatement) but it's being kept quiet until they hope we've all forgotten about it, or at least cooled down. But then I am a cynic by nature.


Adelaide

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
JuliaW (IP Logged)
05 October, 2017 13:15
Quote:
The Diamond ruled ok
Not the best of starts to the new guy in charges shift is it? Lavender ? Might get a nickname fairly quickly. "Don't tell him Pike!"

Guy Lavender is the new Chief Executive and Secretary of the MCC not the ECB.

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
BeefyRoberts (IP Logged)
05 October, 2017 14:05
All this about change to the two leagues etc is just pure rumour as far as I can see,been nothing in the press or internet (unless someone can put a link up).
Don't we all think getting slightly carried away with 9 and 9 being the set up?
The last change was announced well before the season started so all knew where we stood,I can't think that any sporting body would decide to change a set up in between two seasons (unless a club goes to the wall).

We need to look forward folks,I know it's painful for us all having to face div 2 cricket next year,but let's all focus on the job in hand..That is to give the club and players our full support and get us back where we belong.
Let's show Div 2 we will be the strongest side by a huge distance.
Look,I'm hurting as much as the next person...God,I was in New York ending my month road trip when I saw the results and for a day or so it really,really screwed my holiday up for me.I felt as low as I had felt for I don't know how long.
So,come on everyone,let's try and put the 9/9 split to bed as it ain't going to happen (if it does,I will be first to hold my hands up).
Start to focus on hopefully some nice outgrounds next year,who knows..Colwyn Bay,Chesterfield,Swansea,Cheltenham,and maybe Arundel could be on our lists to visit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2017 14:15 by BeefyRoberts.

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
05 October, 2017 14:47
I don't think there is anything wrong in us making one last appeal.

Then of course, that has to be the end of the matter, whichever way it goes.

My difficulty with 'taking our medicine' is that there is no guarantee we come straight back up again. We would/will probably be the best team in Division 2 on paper, but what if our first four games are heavily rain affected, and the meantime two other teams have got off to a flying start with 3 wins out of 4?

That could be said to be 'out of our hands' but the result could easily be that we don't come straight back up, in which case the brain drain starts, with out of contract players leaving because a Division one county has made them an offer. And, if that happens, it becomes even harder to get back to Division 1.

Which is why I don't feel like throwing in the towel, and saying, 'We deserve it' 3 points separated 4 teams, and but for a genuine mix up, we would have had 2 more points.

Battle.

(Sm137)

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
AGod (IP Logged)
05 October, 2017 14:54
Normally a body like the ECB would have to announce a change in advance. In theory, that is probably a legal requirement.

However........ what is or isn't a legal requirement may be irrelevant if absolutely nobody objects, in any way, to what is being proposed.

A 9-9 split with only Warks being relegated would disadvantage nobody. They finished so far behind everybody else that I cannot see that Warks could object. Counties coming up from Div Two would have less chance of being relegated from Div ONe next season. Warks would have more chance of being promoted from Div Two next season.

So far as I can see, everybody would win.

Should the ECB attempt to re-instate your points and then relegate us, I think it inconceivable that they would not face legal action and be dragged through the courts. Who knows whether, having originally said that you would not do so, Middx might attempt some form of legal action to get the two points back.

Faced with the threat of legal action from either Somerset or Middx vs a situation that nobody would object to..... then the ECB may very well be tempted by the latter option (especially if their lawyers have already told them that Middx have a good chance of winning an Arrowgate case and Somerset would have a good chance of winning a case based on being relegated after not having known what was needed before the final match started).

As far as the press, supposedly David Fulton, on Sky, claimed that a 9-9 split was 'the most likely outcome.'

Many others, though, have said the ECB will not change the points after the fact as it would create a precedent.

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
adelaide (IP Logged)
05 October, 2017 16:12
AGod

It might seem like splitting hairs but the original Middlesex statement could be taken as implying acceptance that there was no further form of appeal to the ECB, though more recent actions suggest some form of non-appeal which looks remarkably like an appeal. I don't recall the word "legal" being used at the time. I don't think anyone would want to see legal action by either county. I certainly don't.


Adelaide

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
Jonathan Winsky (IP Logged)
05 October, 2017 19:17
Quote:
chunkyinargyll
My difficulty with 'taking our medicine' is that there is no guarantee we come straight back up again. We would/will probably be the best team in Division 2 on paper, but what if our first four games are heavily rain affected, and the meantime two other teams have got off to a flying start with 3 wins out of 4?

A further threat is that teams in division two play 5 opponents twice and 4 opponents once. Therefore, there is a risk that Middlesex could end up with a tougher fixturelist than the other teams hoping for promotion. For example, we could find ourselves playing only 3 or 4 matches against the bottom three sides, whereas our rivals could end up with 6 such matches. It seems a bit of a lottery, which I suppose answers my question about why ECB wanted an 8-team division one, as that is less of a lottery considering everyone plays each other twice.

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
05 October, 2017 20:05
Quote:
chunkyinargyll
I don't think there is anything wrong in us making one last appeal.
Then of course, that has to be the end of the matter, whichever way it goes.

My difficulty with 'taking our medicine' is that there is no guarantee we come straight back up again. We would/will probably be the best team in Division 2 on paper, but what if our first four games are heavily rain affected, and the meantime two other teams have got off to a flying start with 3 wins out of 4?

That could be said to be 'out of our hands' but the result could easily be that we don't come straight back up, in which case the brain drain starts, with out of contract players leaving because a Division one county has made them an offer. And, if that happens, it becomes even harder to get back to Division 1.

Which is why I don't feel like throwing in the towel, and saying, 'We deserve it' 3 points separated 4 teams, and but for a genuine mix up, we would have had 2 more points.

Battle.

(Sm137)

Chunkers - although the decision was very poor, the time to appeal and battle was when the two points were first deducted. Your cricket management were utterly useless and toothless at outset. I don't know whether that was due to incompetence, complacency or toadying to the ECB (or some combination of the three). Now it just seems like sour grapes from a sad loser. Going into the final game, Somerset had every right to know what they had to achieve to avoid the drop. I see no way that should be retrospectively altered.

Going from the reports of your forum meeting on Monday, your fellow members were a lot softer on your cricket management than I anticipated or feel they deserve. Naively on my part, I expected Arrowgate to have been concluded and announced by then. The ECB seem in no rush. I don't know what your cricket management are doing but they aren't communicating to Middlesex members.

As for the review of your last season and what went belly up as announced at the forum, who is going to carry out that review? The people who let it go belly up?

Any battle looks as if it should be against those claiming to be running the Club for its members. Don't waste time and efforts battling for two points that had rightly gone by the time your boys pitched up in Taunton.

P&C

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
05 October, 2017 20:18
Quote:
Peaches and Creosote
Going into the final game, Somerset had every right to know what they had to achieve to avoid the drop. I see no way that should be retrospectively altered.

You do realise no one is Talking about Somerset being relegated?

David Fulton is reported as saying on Sky the likely solution is 9 teams per division.

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
05 October, 2017 20:37
Quote:
chunkyinargyll
Quote:
Peaches and Creosote
Going into the final game, Somerset had every right to know what they had to achieve to avoid the drop. I see no way that should be retrospectively altered.

You do realise no one is Talking about Somerset being relegated?

David Fulton is reported as saying on Sky the likely solution is 9 teams per division.

Chunkers - as the governing regulations are currently, the Cidermen will be swigging in Division Two if Middlesex have their two point deduction cast aside.

I don't know what Fulton said or didn't say but 9 teams per division is pure conjecture. It would totally muck up the 8/10 split between the two divisions that the ECB were so keen to introduce. If only one team were to be relegated this season, that would also have the effect of meaning that the closing games - especially your's at Taunton - were meaningless.

I don't believe you can argue that Middlesex getting their two points back keeps you up and doesn't harm anyone.

P&C

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
adelaide (IP Logged)
05 October, 2017 22:18
P&C

If it went to two divisions of 9, neither Middlesex nor Somerset would care a fig about the two points. It does seem farcical that the structure could be changed at this stage purely (it would seem) to make the two points inconsequential.

It is stretching credulity to argue that other teams would be hurt by their last matches having retrospectively become meaningless. Isn't that exactly what happened last year thanks to the retrospective relegation imposed on Durham? The only team "hurt" there was Durham. Kent claimed that they, rather than Hampshire, should have got the benefit but without the penalty there would have been no benefit to argue about, so they were in reality no worse off.


I disagree with your reference to the two points having "rightly" been lost. Or maybe it is the inference that is meant to be drawn with which I disagree. The initial deduction was totally bone-headed in my view. However, once made, and with the next round of matches having started, it quickly got to the point where it would have been wrong to reinstate them. You don't have to think the initial deduction was justified to think that the points should not be restored now.


Adelaide

 
Re: Are we going to appeal Arrowgate?
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
05 October, 2017 22:24
I assume if the ECB's stance was still 'Tough luck' it would have taken them less than 24 hours to say so. I also assume David Fulton must have a source, rather than talking off the top of his head.

Whatever will be will be.

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