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Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
07 May, 2018 18:15
Quote:
wembleylion
We are nowhere near being good enough for promotion. The much touted "close season review" perhaps should have started with a clear out at management and coaching level, Few of our players have improved and several have gone backwards. Is Tom Barber anywhere near County Championship standard? I feel We have let better players than him go, but perhaps someone knows something I don't.
On paper we are the strongest team in div 2, and all the pundits agree.
In practice the team is underperforming. It was very lax not nailing down an overseas player earlier. That smacks of complacency.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
adelaide (IP Logged)
07 May, 2018 19:18
With the exception of the year that saw us stay up (just) at Old Trafford, I don't think that the CC performances between promotion and winning the championship represented underperformance at all, even allowing for the artificial nature of some of the final positions thanks to the mid-table clustering that seems inevitable in CC1.

The one day performances haven't been good but has there really been complacency in that regard? Last year there was an attempt to do something about T20 with Vettori and McCallum and it seemed to make no difference.

You are right that being successful does not mean there is no complacency but it is the success which often engenders complacency, surely? In the case of your football club it came, slowly but surely, as a result of the successes of Wenger's first ten or so years and the rather more modified success until recently of keeping a CL place throughout the strains of stadium-building.

Chris Rogers was replaced by Adam Voges (and George Bailey for a bit) but he didn't do so well. Getting brained by Ollie probably didn't help. Also, there never seemed to be the same sense of intense commitment to the county - but then that is rare with overseas players these days. We let Rogers go because Nick Gubbins needed his chance, of course. If Nick and done a Higgins and turned up somewhere else we'd be complaining about that!

As far as the overseas for this year was concerned, it was pretty clear that the lack of success for Middlesex players in the IPL draft had knocked a hole in the finances and I suspect that all the stuff about wanting to get others involved was putting on a brave face. Then came all the batsman injuries so we decided we had to get cover in; We are not Surrey so we probably cannot afford an overseas player who would really strengthen the team so we end up with Mr Cartwright, intended to beef up the batting but instead helping out with the ball. Could we have afforded a Kolpak (and would we want to)? Again, could we have got one who really added to what we thought we had (before Toby's injury), or would we get one at the same level as ... James Franklin (who, come to think of it, could have played the role that Cartwright has so far)?

Talking of whom ... I think it is complacent to rule out two experienced players in the way it has been done as it seems to say that even our kids ought to be good enough to get promoted. CC2 no place for over-30s? - tell that to Darren Stevens! Yes, the batting ought to be good enough without Compo but a lot of confidence went AWOL in the second half of 2017. The seam bowling is normally our strength but with TRJ out, Finn not available so far and Murtagh off to Malahide soon it looks under pressure. Spin has always been a problem of course. Ravi Patel surely has to be given a twirl soon.


Adelaide

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
Seaxe_Man (IP Logged)
07 May, 2018 19:55
Seven points from two away games, only one for batting continues the form of last season, where two hundredish or less totals were posted in the first innings and so far that has continued.

It's not rocket science to reckon two hundred in the first innings, ain't a platform for victory and is definitely unlikely to produce many victories.

The 93 run lead Sussex established in this game was crucial for their victory.

The bowlers are continually defending small totals. Not easy.

The next two away games in June at Grace Road and Canterbury will be interesting.

The small batting totals have with a few exceptions persisted since Chris Rogers was sacrificed on the altar of Ticketgate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2018 19:58 by Seaxe_Man.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
Seaxe_Man (IP Logged)
07 May, 2018 20:02
Adelaide. I suspect the Review recommended blooding young players.

This was partly reinforced by Gus's comment, probably at the AGM: that he didn't want to arrive back in Division One, with the young players without matches under their belt.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
07 May, 2018 20:21
About 6 or 7 players renewed, or extended their contracts over the winter, which I took to be a sign all was well- an act of faith- 'We'll be back in Division one in 2019'

But all these fringe England players won't want to be in Division two for more than one season, so getting straight back up is essential, or they will be getting, and accepting offers from elsewhere.

I'd look after 2018 first, rather than start giving people a chance, because we need to go back up at the first time of asking.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
LegendJMB (IP Logged)
07 May, 2018 20:27
If you are referring to Compton and Franklin I agree

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
LegendJMB (IP Logged)
07 May, 2018 20:33
Some good points though I am not fully convinced. If you are referring to Compo and Franklin I agree.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
07 May, 2018 20:41
I had no problem with Holden ahead of Compton if everyone was fit, because he had done all the right things at age group level, and for Northants last year.

Where it fell down was when the injuries piled up, and it became clear the policy was, 'We're not picking Compton, no matter what'.

That is ridiculous stubborness.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
LegendJMB (IP Logged)
07 May, 2018 20:51
As a new member of the site it’s great to see the debate about what’s happening. It shows the passion for the Club. Interesting how people see things and players so differently. I would like to see Patel given a go and I do feel the reluctance to pick NC is odd when we are struggling. I also feel Franklin, if fit to bowl, should play. If Murtagh with Ireland then assume we are looking at Harris, Barber and Helm.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
rod/ed (IP Logged)
07 May, 2018 20:52
Have to agree. With four batsmen unavailable not picking Compton, a player of experience and ability to bat for long periods, certainly hints at complacency.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
Jonathan Winsky (IP Logged)
07 May, 2018 21:14
Considering Middlesex haven't signed any experienced domestic players since winning the County Championship in 2016, it certainly comes across as complacent. However, I am not sure who we could have signed, as the best players tend to be in-contract elsewhere as well as happy at their present county. There tends to be far less top players moving clubs in cricket than in football, meaning that cricket doesn't have much of a culture of counties snapping up the best players from around the circuit.

I agree with the club’s decision to move away from Nick Compton and James Franklin, because if we get promoted, then it would be preferable to arrive in division one with a squad full of players who are both likely to be around for the next few years and have many matches under their belt, which is an objective we may not achieve by selecting Compo and Franklin and thus blocking the path of someone like Max Holden. The only problems with this strategy are that we won’t be in division one next season unless our results pick up, and that our continued omission of Compton and Franklin means we have two players on our wage bill who aren’t playing.

Given the choice between us being promoted before we are truly ready to mount a division one title challenge, or spending two or three seasons in division two and then being ready to mount a division one title challenge, I would prefer the latter. However, I imagine that many supporters, employees and sponsors of the club are keen for us to get back into division one as soon as possible. In any case, if conferences are introduced in 2020, it would not be long before all 18 counties have equal status in the County Championship.

Cricinfo has produced a report of today.

I know that Arsenal supporters wanted to break the cycle of nearly always finishing 3rd or 4th in the Premier League and nearly always being eliminated in the last 16 of the Champions League, so I imagine their supporters will be delighted about the club going a couple of years without doing this!

[edited to correct spelling]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2018 21:18 by Jonathan Winsky.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
LegendJMB (IP Logged)
07 May, 2018 21:33
Big if but if Conferences came in for 2020 CC Div 2 would be pointless in 2019 as winners wouldn’t have promotion. May as well have an interim year with one Div!!
I guess placings in 19 May affect what conference, lots to be worked out I guess.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
07 May, 2018 22:03
The question that is really difficult to answer is why have we gone from deserved champions to struggling in div 2 in one and a bit seasons with very much the same personnel.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
fivestar (IP Logged)
08 May, 2018 07:37
Did you know we actually turned down Amar Virdi as a youngster.Was not deemed good at CAG level and left out of age group squad.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
08 May, 2018 08:02
Didn't know that.

Spinners are strange creatures, as they sometimes take longer to develop than other disciplines.

Also the ones who are spotted young, and get an early chance at first class level often fail to develop, and push on. I'm thinking of a number of 'promising' leg spinners, who at 28 are no better than they were at 18. Maybe a lack of good quality spin coaches, as nearly all (if not all?) county bowling coaches are retired seamers/quicks.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
Sussex Seaxe (IP Logged)
08 May, 2018 10:16
Speaking of spinners, I am concerned that we keep picking Rayner for his magnificent catching. Very few wickets so far, admittedly in early season seamer conditions, and his batting seems to have disappeared. Can we afford to do this? I like Ollie and would love to see him do well, but I think Patel deserves an extended run now.

As for the batting, I am generally of the 'keep the faith' persuasion. However, I do agree with many on here that, with Cartwright struggling to find his feet, it is folly to rule out Compton.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
Patsy_Hendren (IP Logged)
08 May, 2018 13:02
Quote:
Sussex Seaxe
Speaking of spinners, I am concerned that we keep picking Rayner for his magnificent catching. Very few wickets so far, admittedly in early season seamer conditions, and his batting seems to have disappeared. Can we afford to do this? I like Ollie and would love to see him do well, but I think Patel deserves an extended run now.
As for the batting, I am generally of the 'keep the faith' persuasion. However, I do agree with many on here that, with Cartwright struggling to find his feet, it is folly to rule out Compton.

It might sound odd but Rayner could appear as a substitute fielder whilst we select Patel (as well as possibly Sowter as well). We could also replace Robson and Cartwright with Compton and Morgan whilst deciding what to do with the seamers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2018 13:30 by Patsy_Hendren.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
tbl (IP Logged)
08 May, 2018 13:15
In seamer friendly conditions, we need good slip fielders, and Rayner justifies his selection on this alone at the moment. Plus a few overs from him improve our over rate and avoid any fines/points deductions.

I hope Finn is available to replace Murtagh, as otherwise Harris will be the only experienced seam option. Surely Helm is a better choice than Barber?

I agree Compton should be back in contention and find his treatment bizzare. Either play him or let him go to another county.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
Patsy_Hendren (IP Logged)
08 May, 2018 13:34
Quote:
tbl
In seamer friendly conditions, we need good slip fielders, and Rayner justifies his selection on this alone at the moment. Plus a few overs from him improve our over rate and avoid any fines/points deductions.
I hope Finn is available to replace Murtagh, as otherwise Harris will be the only experienced seam option. Surely Helm is a better choice than Barber?

I agree Compton should be back in contention and find his treatment bizarre. Either play him or let him go to another county.

You have made some good points tbl. However two frontline spinners appear to be effective with other counties, not least with reducing the over rate.

 
Re: CC v Sussex, 4-7 May 2018
Lifer (IP Logged)
08 May, 2018 14:46
A bit difficult to loan out Compo. It's his Testimonial season!

Difficult to say which of Barber or Helm should play.

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