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Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
05 August, 2018 16:43
Compare our up and coming players to Surrey's. Holden is the same age as Pope. Compare their averages. We have nobody comparable to the Currans. We have no promising young spinners to compete with Virdi.

The current mediocrity would be more bearable if we had some really exciting youngsters bursting into the team.

But we don't.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
05 August, 2018 17:19
Well, some of them are playing for other counties....


Cameron Steel doing okay for Durham, and Martin Thurston made 41 for Northants on Friday (to go with 53 on his Royal London debut a couple of months ago). Neither played a single first class game for Middlesex (we didn't even give Thurston a pro contract)

That's besides the higher profile departures of Higgins and Podmore.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
Jameslawler (IP Logged)
05 August, 2018 18:13
Well we have gubbins, helm and Holden. But we Don't seem to have the number of young players comming through like Surrey. At Surrey it seems that they not afraid to pick young players. While at Middlesex younger players have a tougher route into the first team

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
tallliman (IP Logged)
05 August, 2018 18:21
I don't follow the 2nds enough to know who's coming through but it's always easier to come into a winning side than a losing one.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
Jonathan Winsky (IP Logged)
05 August, 2018 23:30
The inclusion of Ethan Bamber, Luke Hollman, Jack Davies and Savin Perera in England’s squad for the U-19 World Cup earlier this year meant that Middlesex provided more players to the squad than any other county. However, I don’t think that those players have made much impact in our 2nd XI this season.

George Scott, Robbie White and Thilan Walallawita have all performed well for our 2nd XI this season. However, the first two have done little on the rare opportunities they have been given in our 1st XI, while I don’t know if Walallawita has a chance of playing in our 1st XI, as we already have Ollie Rayner, Ravi Patel and Nathan Sowter at the club. If Sowter is still injured for our remaining four Twenty20 matches, then we could do worse than give Walallawita a chance, preferably alongside Patel rather than instead of him.

It has previously been suggested that one of the reasons why our 1st XI has disappointed since winning the County Championship and reaching the Twenty20 quarter-finals in 2016 is because a key factor behind those successes was that youngsters often stepped up from the 2nd XI and made a big impact in the 1st XI, which is something which has barely happened in the two subsequent seasons. This theory is probably true.

Something appears to be going really right for Surrey at the moment, as they are 34 points clear at the top of the County Championship, and they are satisfying ECB demands to produce players for England. They have to be congratulated for this, as the club has had a few low points (e.g. the deaths of Ben Hollioake and Tom Maynard, and seeing senior players like Tim Murtagh and the now-returned Rikki Clarke decide their future was best-served elsewhere) in the period between just before their last title in 2002 and now, so the club has done well to turn things around.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
06 August, 2018 08:44
Surrey seem to get their priorities in order - starting with overseas players.
They shop in Harrods and we shop in the £ shop

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
06 August, 2018 13:38
It's tempting to say we should poach some 20/20 specialists like Pope (born in Chelsea), but they'd only be infected by the same inexplicable lassitude as other recruits to Middlesex.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2018 23:11 by Korean Middle Saxon.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
Seaxe_Man (IP Logged)
06 August, 2018 15:45
Quote:
freddie tittlemouse
Compare our up and coming players to Surrey's. Holden is the same age as Pope. Compare their averages. We have nobody comparable to the Currans. We have no promising young spinners to compete with Virdi.
The current mediocrity would be more bearable if we had some really exciting youngsters bursting into the team.

But we don't.

An interesting question fred. As chunky says, up to about a dozen of our ex youngsters are playing around the shires.

The only consistent feature being that none ticked the MX box of red ball cricket with England potential.

White ball not considered to be important. We still have three who tick the red ball box.

The departed often followed with negative comments which has proven to be incorrect.

Both Pope and Virdi were both born in the metropolitan county. Chelsea and Chiswick respectively.

Having watched the seconds, the boy with the long Sri Lankan type surname, a left arm spinner, looks promising. His prospects are improved hopefully with the departure of the recent regime.

As with most things history enters the story. Back in 2008 we had a decent all round coach in Toby Radford who brought about our lone T20 win.

This was an opportunity to build upon white ball wise. White ball has a low priority with the hierarchy so the opposite occurred.

Radford was disposed of and the team broken up. Apparently Radford described as
' a little bloke with a squeaky voice' did not find favour with the new hierarchy.

The fact that he had some grey matter between the ears was not thought to be important.

So in came another bloke with an unknown cv. He turned out to be, of limited vision, not a risk taker, so therefore blooding youngsters and developing a second spin bowler not high on his priorities.

He inherited the following playing staff: Udal,Berg,Compton,Dexter,Danny Evans, Finn, Billy Godleman, Dan Housego,Murali Kartik, Malan, Morgan, Murtagh, David Nash, Alan Richardson, Ben Scott, Owais Shah, Chris Silverwood, Andrew Strauss.

Of those Berg, Dexter, Evans, Godleman, Housego,Kartik,Nash, Richardson, Scott, Shah, Richardson did not see out his reign. Berg, Dexter, Godleman are still playing the others have retired. And Compton semi retired.

So, Scott inherited the basis of a decent squad including importantly Andrew Strauss. On his watch there was no chance of exciting youngsters bursting into the team. Heavens above...

But as said, limited vision stood in the way of real progress in white ball cricket offset by the 2011 promotion in red ball.

Fast forward to the 2016 Championship and the same opportunity to build from strength was passed up.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
Jeff Coleman (IP Logged)
06 August, 2018 18:39
But we have been successful at white ball cricket. At second eleven level that is.

50 over 20 over

2010 semi
2012 semi second in group
2013 semi runner up
2014 semi second in group
2015 champions
2016 champions
2017 runner up
2018 champions

This backs up SM’s comments about raw material not being trained on within the club.

The following were involved in the successes. Rossington, Davey, Higgins, Podmore, Tom Smith and Steele. All were seen worthy of contracts elsewhere. I would also add that somewhere along the line we let Joe Denly go as well.

As to Toby Radford, don’t forget that he went on to win the T20 World Cup as number two on the West Indies coaching staff.

Just seen that the spacing doesn't fit but you can probably get my drift



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2018 18:42 by Jeff Coleman.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
Seaxe Boy (IP Logged)
07 August, 2018 02:10
Quote:
chunkyinargyll
Well, some of them are playing for other counties....Martin Thurston made 41 for Northants on Friday (to go with 53 on his Royal London debut a couple of months ago). Neither played a single first class game for Middlesex (we didn't even give Thurston a pro contract).

It was disappointing that Charlie Thurston was unable to build on from several high scoring innings for our 2nd XI.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
Lifer (IP Logged)
07 August, 2018 10:21
Quote:
Bring back the Crusaders
Surrey seem to get their priorities in order - starting with overseas players.
They shop in Harrods and we shop in the £ shop

That's because they own their ground, stage test matches and are the richest county in cricket.

The one thing we have got is playing at a ground overseas players want to play at. Rogers was offered more money elsewhere but chose Lord's

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
Seaxe_Man (IP Logged)
07 August, 2018 10:26
Thanks for that information Jeff. The comparison with the first eleven is staggering.

As you say, the mainstays of that second eleven are no longer with us.

Have watched a bit more second eleven cricket this year, including a number of the eight out of eight SET wins.

Can concur, that they seem to be more adroit at this form of cricket.Fuller, Scott, White played in those games. Andersson also worthy of a first team game.

The 31 run last wicket stand at Radlett in the Final versus The Cidermen a case in point.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
adelaide (IP Logged)
07 August, 2018 12:14
Amazing with such brilliant coaching by Radford and such awful coaching by Scott that we were such cack in the Championship under the former and won it under the latter! We do still think the CC is the most important, don't we?

There is actually a bit of a parallel with Surrey. We had young players (Gubbins, Eskinazi) and playing as if to the manor born, like the Surrey youngsters. We had experienced players (Rayner for one) playing out of their skin, in the same way that the much-maligned Dernbach seems to be this season. They can afford better overseas players and Morkel as a Kolpak, so the analogy falls down there, particularly as we had no overseas player for several games in 2016 and when we did have one he was not the same class as the departed Chris Rogers.

The current Surrey crop look a bit like the Beckham/Scholes generation of their time but it will be interesting to see whether their form slips back a bit when the county circuit has had a longer look at them. I think that has happened to ours, also including Tom Helm, but hopefully that is temporary.

It is disappointing that our young players have struggled when given a chance this season, with the exception of Max, but that doesn't mean none of them will come through eventually. I can't help thinking that might be another symptom of the wider malaise that seems to have gripped the club, though whether that is down to the Director of Cricket, Scott, the introduction of a separate T20 coach. the fragmentation of the captaincy or Brexit I have no idea.

The danger, in CC terms, is that we slide back to where we were in Radford's time, without the stars aligning to allow it to be covered by a one day sticking plaster. Because that is surely the reality of where we were in 2008. What lessons can we learn from then about how not to do it?


Adelaide

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
Seaxe_Man (IP Logged)
07 August, 2018 13:36
I thought I would check up on your perceived idea that Toby Radford oversaw a large chunk of MX CC CACK. Adelaide

Checking the Playfairs, the cackyist season of that era, was 2006, where we were relegated with only one win v Yorkshire at Southgate thanks to Owais Shah.

John Emburey is listed as Head Coach and Jason Pooley as Assistant.

2007. Richard Pybus was listed as Head Coach, though if memory serves me correctly, he quit after about three months on discovering he was without an office at Lords.. Assistant Jason Pooley.

2008. Toby Radford is listed as Head Coach. Assistant Coach Richard Scott a Shaun Udal appointee most people believe.

So Radford's cack in CC cricket lasted but a single year. Bit difficult to judge on that.

He did however win a Trophy in his one year as he was eased out very early in 2009.

Scott, bless him, had near a decade in charge. Yes he was there in 2016 but you omitted to add he was in charge of the 2017 cack that followed with a further helping in 2018.

And white ball during his reign. Nary a thing.

Overall, Radford's looks to have had the better coaching career to date despite the squeaky voice.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
07 August, 2018 13:53
Potentially our best find in the last 3 years or so was Anshy Rath, but the Home office put the kibosh on that.

People like the Curran's (particularly Sam) and now Ollie Pope come along once in a while. I don't think you can take a decent standard 19 year old second XI player and create another Sam Curran through excellent coaching.

I don't think there is any evidence of our academy/second XI coaching being substandard, it's just that our current crop seem to be very good 2nd team but not yet able to step up to first team standard. Loads of them down the years, eg Housego, London.

Athers son, Josh DeCaires seems to score runs for fun in age group cricket, so maybe he will get a pro contract in due course (think he's only about 16)

Walallawita has about 60 second team wickets this summer (all matches, including friendlies combined) but we already have 3 spinners, so maybe he will be another one to sign his first pro contract with someone else. It would probably need one of Rayner, Sowter or Patel to leave for us to offer him anything.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
Seaxe_Man (IP Logged)
07 August, 2018 14:57
Walallawita who I have seen a couple of times has troubled the opposition batsmen and could move up our ladder.He also batted ok.

We apparently declined interest in Liam Plunkett for fear of becoming Dad's Army. So, of the three candidates you list chunky, the last two are younger.

Sowter is a brilliant fielder, Patel less so but has improved. His batting, he has a couple of authentic shots. Could also improve.

The Academy is producing raw material but as Jeff Coleman said, it is not being trained on,

We are a bit like Chelsea Football Club and their FA Youth Cup winners. Few have had much opportunity.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
Seaxe_Man (IP Logged)
07 August, 2018 15:04
Quote:
Lifer
Quote:
Bring back the Crusaders
Surrey seem to get their priorities in order - starting with overseas players.
They shop in Harrods and we shop in the £ shop

That's because they own their ground, stage test matches and are the richest county in cricket.

The one thing we have got is playing at a ground overseas players want to play at. Rogers was offered more money elsewhere but chose Lord's

Yes indeed Lifer, Chris Rogers was huge asset, but it all ended in tears.

And we have not him replaced either. His impact was similar to Desmond Hayes near 30 years ago. (Championship cricket). Haynes was equally adept across all formats.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
adelaide (IP Logged)
07 August, 2018 17:04
Toby Radford took over at some time during the 2007 season (when Pybus left) and resigned in the middle of the 2009 season at a time when were bottom of CC2 (and had finished bottom of our T20 group). He resigned because a restructure (the one that brought Gus in?) had downgraded his job description.

So he had two years, albeit just one full season. It would be unfair to blame him for the mid-2009 position, given that the wider issues which led him to resign may also have influenced the performance of the team but cack seems a fair description of the position at the time. It is interesting that we went from hero to zero in T20 with the same coach, rather like we have in the CC under Scott, but maybe that is the nature of the T20 game.

I didn't think I needed to mention the 2017 relegation, as it is so fresh in our minds. People presumably didn't mention the 2016 CC for similar reasons but it does seem unfair to (in effect) say he played little part when we very very good but was to blame when we were very very bad.

I'd also query whether it is cackier to be relegated or to finish close to bottom of the table after relegation, though admittedly (unlike 2017) there was nothing remotely marginal or unlucky about 2006.

Whether it was down to Radford, to the weakness of the squad or to internal issues, it wasn't great under his tenure. It seemed to me there was a bit of rewriting of history going on, with his record being played up and Scott's played down. I think that sort of thing should left to the White House!


Adelaide

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
07 August, 2018 17:05
If short people with squeaky voices don't fit the head coach requirements that rules out Jimmy Krankie. Also the sadly departed Alan Ball and Charlie Drake.

 
Re: Where are our Popes, our Currans, our Virdis
chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
07 August, 2018 17:22
Joe Pasquale is available.

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