His Tine?
The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
His Tine?
By Grockle
July 18 2009
We go to Trent Bridge for our first Pro40 run out of the year. I'd like to be there but unless the weather takes a dramatic turn for the better I'm not making the trip. The present report suggests scattered showers and an ovecast afternoon. Neil Edwards has been called up after some impressive work in the seconds. Max Waller seems fit again and Caddy will play.
His Tine?
July 18 2009
We go to Trent Bridge for our first Pro40 run out of the year. I'd like to be there but unless the weather takes a dramatic turn for the better I'm not making the trip. The present report suggests scattered showers and an ovecast afternoon. Neil Edwards has been called up after some impressive work in the seconds. Max Waller seems fit again and Caddy will play.
v Nottinghamshire Pro40@ Trent Bridge Sunday 19 July 2009
Commentary
Somerset go into the 40 over competition with a squad of 13 based around the core of our side this season. Marcus Trescothick will open with any name from three Justin Langer, Criag Kieswetter or Neil Edwards (who has been called in from the seconds). The middle order will be Zander de Bruyn, James Hildreth and Peter Trego as has been the norm for most of the season. Arul Suppiah will bw in a straight fight with Wes Durston if the choice goes to Neil. The bowlers will include Alfonso Thomas and probably Andrew Caddick as Charl Willoughby is being surprisingly rested. Mark Turner has been included iin the squad but his fitness is unkown at the moment. Ben Phillips has also been included as has Wes Durston (again for performances in the seconds).
The definites would be;
Marcus, Justin, Craig - Zander, James, Peter - Alfonso, Andrew
Plus
either Arul or Wes (or both?) - possibly Neil - Mark or Ben
It's good to see the new boys in there, performances in the seconds with the bat need to be credited and this is an acknowledgment of those. Let's hope it goes further this time and we see these men pay in this game to allow them to show what they can do. Personally I think this move for Neil Edwards has been a long time coming.
Notts rest Sidebottom and Adams - got to be good for us. But it will be good to see Matt Wood opening for the home side.
The "Game"
Well Matt had the best of what game there was. After a lengthy wait for play to start because of rain we put them in for a 26 over slog and they absolutely took us to the cleaners. We did not go in with Caddick but played both spinners, which meant a first team game for Wes and both the returning pacemen; Ben Phillips and Mark Turner. That faith was only really returned by Phillips who returned very creditable figures of 6over for 20 with 1 wicket. Everyone else (and we used everyone player usually in our bowling arsenal) went for over 9 an over as Wood (91) and Hussey (120 not out) set up a partnership of 204 for the third wicket after we had the Outlaws at 20 for 2. Despite a couple of quick wickets at the end from Thomas (The main wicket taker with 3), we were facing a target of 248 to win off 26 overs.
Langer went cheaply and Trescothick was run out when leading the scoring (which had to be at about 9.5 runs an over) and we were 71 for 3 at the end of the 9th over when the rain swept in and washed an abysmal performance away much to the chagrin of the Notts men who only needed another over to make it a result and rub our noses in it even further.
A draw and we have already used our "Get out of Jail Free" card for this competition. We were thoroughly outplayed and were heading for a significant loss before the heavens opened. But we walk away with one point and some significant thinking to do.
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The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockles.com (IP Logged)
Date: 18/07/2009 22:02
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:23:10:13:47 by Grockle.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:23:10:13:47 by Grockle.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 18/07/2009 22:09
Great Woody is back in and getting his chance.
Realy hope Neil gets a chance, if so he has to open, meaning Craig goes back to 6 or even 7.
Could give us a huge batting line up with Pete at 8, that would mean Zander bowling his full 8 though unless a batter was to be rested from our normal top 7?
Realy hope Neil gets a chance, if so he has to open, meaning Craig goes back to 6 or even 7.
Could give us a huge batting line up with Pete at 8, that would mean Zander bowling his full 8 though unless a batter was to be rested from our normal top 7?
pro40 finale
Posted by: cricketjerry-mouse (IP Logged)
Date: 18/07/2009 14:55
Matt Wood and Ali Brown are to open the batting for Notts at Trent Bridge tomorrow as Somerset start the last-ever Pro40 campaign.
Ryan Sidebottom and Andre Adams are rested and the side is:
Wood, Brown, Wagh, D. Hussey, Patel, Jefferson, Read, Franks, Earlham, Fletcher and Pattinson.
Somerset pick from 13, already listed on the `It`s good news week` thread. Charl is rested; Caddy,Turner and Edwards included.
Ryan Sidebottom and Andre Adams are rested and the side is:
Wood, Brown, Wagh, D. Hussey, Patel, Jefferson, Read, Franks, Earlham, Fletcher and Pattinson.
Somerset pick from 13, already listed on the `It`s good news week` thread. Charl is rested; Caddy,Turner and Edwards included.
Re: pro40 finale
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 18/07/2009 16:30
Is it a 1:45 start tomorrow does anyone know?
Re: pro40 finale
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 18/07/2009 17:48
Not sure I'd pick Caddy in the XI, quite frankly.
Will be amazed if they actually pick Neil Edwards. If they do, I think he will make them look silly for not picking him before in the short stuff.
Will be amazed if they actually pick Neil Edwards. If they do, I think he will make them look silly for not picking him before in the short stuff.
Re: pro40 finale
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 18/07/2009 18:22
think edwards very likely to play, hope so.
one of seamers will miss out, turner i expect then 1 batter, maybe zander, most likely wes or arul?
one of seamers will miss out, turner i expect then 1 batter, maybe zander, most likely wes or arul?
Re: pro40 finale
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 18/07/2009 21:19
It won't be Arul if they don't play another spinner. Is Max fit?
Re: pro40 finale
Posted by: cricketjerry-mouse (IP Logged)
Date: 18/07/2009 21:57
Max Waller hopes to be fit to pay for the Seconds against Middlesex at Radlett C.C.on Tuesday.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Exiled Tim (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 06:58
Caddick has been expensive in CC matches, so the thought of him being useful in Pro 40 is distant!
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 08:32
Pretty sure he will play, can't see point of naming him in squad if he isn't going to play given he's hardly played a 1 day game for us in past 3 or 4 years
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Sloop John B (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 09:47
12:45 Grockle according to Cricinfo
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 09:49
1.45pm it is, hope weather holds
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 09:55
You are looking at GMT John and not local time.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Sloop John B (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 10:01
Thanks Mike - wish Cricinfo would use local time!
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 11:00
Well we're going to have a full afternoon of play because I looked at the weather at 6:30 and decided it wasn't worth the 3 and a half hour drive.
The Andy issue is a Catch 22 for the other Andy and JL. If he IS into his rhythm then he's worth the punt (especially if Charl is being rested) his decrease in pace may make him more useful in short games (which have never really been his forte). If he isn't, then with a lack of cricket do you bowl him to get him there - if he ever will get there again?
Will he get picked? Yes. Is he still up to it? Hope so but my own jury is definitely out as of yet.
The Andy issue is a Catch 22 for the other Andy and JL. If he IS into his rhythm then he's worth the punt (especially if Charl is being rested) his decrease in pace may make him more useful in short games (which have never really been his forte). If he isn't, then with a lack of cricket do you bowl him to get him there - if he ever will get there again?
Will he get picked? Yes. Is he still up to it? Hope so but my own jury is definitely out as of yet.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 11:21
If Caddy does play, I trust he won't be asked to participate in Langer's strategy of one and two over spells?
Can't imagine Caddy would enjoy that, nor can I see how it would be conducive to bowling him into rhythm?
Can't imagine Caddy would enjoy that, nor can I see how it would be conducive to bowling him into rhythm?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 11:36
Has anyone else here noticed how closely the composition of Div One in the Pro 40 seems to mirror that in the CC. We have Essex and Glaws as imposters and Lancs are down in Div Two, but there is a strong resemblance between the two line-ups.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 12:32
Caddy and Neil out of the 13, Wesley at 8, Ben at 9, some batting depth there...
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 12:41
Exactly as I expected the team to be. Never expected either of them to play. Suspect Neil was included as a sop seeing as how he's supposedly exploring other opportunities, in part because he's never given a chance in one-day cricket here.
Disappointed, hoped I would be surprised and that Neil would play.
Disappointed, hoped I would be surprised and that Neil would play.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 12:53
oh dear, rain delayed start, any prospect at all do we know?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 13:04
Worse news is that the forecast for Thursday (met office) for Worcester is really bad.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Loyal of Lhasa. (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 14:16
Forecasts have been very unreliable lately - if those met men had had their way, there would have been much less play in the Test than we have enjoyed so far.
No need to panic yet.
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
No need to panic yet.
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 14:18
forecast i think is to be drying up at notts come 6-7ish, could be a 5 over slog fest yet?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 14:45
right then, game on...
Play due to start at 3.47pm with a tea interval at 5.31pm.
26 over match.
Glad i didnt waste £60 (yes SIXTY) on the club coach trip...
Play due to start at 3.47pm with a tea interval at 5.31pm.
26 over match.
Glad i didnt waste £60 (yes SIXTY) on the club coach trip...
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 14:57
Notts 4 for 1 first blood to Turner.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 15:11
26-2 off 5, ben and mark 1 each.
26 overs a side so 200ish i suppose is the target, bit more maybe?
26 overs a side so 200ish i suppose is the target, bit more maybe?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 15:13
I'm afraid to say Turner is not bowling good enough.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: fRed (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 15:23
BBC scorecard says Kieswetter as bowled an over 
Cricket's the winner.
Cricket's the winner.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 15:25
commentary says de bruyn!!!
he's just been slapped for 6 so maybe kieswetter should have bowled instead!!!
he's just been slapped for 6 so maybe kieswetter should have bowled instead!!!
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 15:34
Flintoff's replacement is bowling now.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: geordie moonraker (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 15:55
I thought we had 2 spinners playing?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 15:56
So far our bowling have been terrible apart from Phillips.
The fielding not much better.
The fielding not much better.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 15:57
Langer bowling ??
Grizzzly
Grizzzly
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 15:59
bbc bowling figures are a shambles, phillips has bowled more than 2.4, why are Mark and Alfie showing .1's...
and we realy are in trouble if JL is bowling!
and we realy are in trouble if JL is bowling!
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:01
What is wrong with the BBC score card?
Remove Kieswetter, Durston, Langer.
B Phillips 2.4 0 6 1
Turner 5.1 1 28 1
Thomas 1.1 0 9 0
Kieswetter 2.0 0 20 0
Trego 3.0 0 24 0
Durston 2.0 0 21 0
Langer 0.4 0 8 0
Durston is now Bowling
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:19:16:04:30 by Mike BOS.
Remove Kieswetter, Durston, Langer.
B Phillips 2.4 0 6 1
Turner 5.1 1 28 1
Thomas 1.1 0 9 0
Kieswetter 2.0 0 20 0
Trego 3.0 0 24 0
Durston 2.0 0 21 0
Langer 0.4 0 8 0
Durston is now Bowling
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:19:16:04:30 by Mike BOS.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:04
not sure it matters who's bowling, we are getting hammered all over the place, 230-240 on the cards here
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:14
Quote:Mike BOS
Flintoff's replacement is bowling now.
Not if he's going to go for nearly 50 off 4 he isn't MIke!!
He's doing himself no favours with getting his captain to bowl him more often either!
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:16
come on woody, you can do it...
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:24
Trigger 0 - 47 off 4 ????
What on earth ?
Grizzzly
What on earth ?
Grizzzly
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:25
Looks like Trigger has got a taste of his own medicine.
Hussey 9 sixes according to BBC !
Grizzzly
Hussey 9 sixes according to BBC !
Grizzzly
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Loyal of Lhasa. (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:41
Is it raining? Cricinfo has been stuck at 150/2 for ages and I can't get a commentary anywhere.
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:46
Was about to ask the same question....
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: fRed (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:48
Notts 246 for 5 from their 26 according to beeb.
Cricket's the winner.
Cricket's the winner.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Loyal of Lhasa. (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:49
Cricinfo and Sporting Life have the same old score; so there is either rain or a technical problem.
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:49
The BBC are saying 246 for 5 off 25.4 overs mind you it did say off 26 overs at one time.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: edinburghbil (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:50
I wish it was still 150/2 it sounds much nicer than 246-5!
I see IDB got 37 opening the batting today for Durham.
Maybe he could be added t the long list of pinch hitting openers England have tried in the short game IF he makes a go of opening ?
Our lads have taken a bit of a pasting so far today :-(
I see IDB got 37 opening the batting today for Durham.
Maybe he could be added t the long list of pinch hitting openers England have tried in the short game IF he makes a go of opening ?
Our lads have taken a bit of a pasting so far today :-(
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 16:53
If you think our bowling has been clobbered in the Gloucester match Essex are 161 for 4 off 16 overs RSP.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: edinburghbil (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:02
Well 247 off 26 is only a bit under 10 an over, so its a similar, but more sustained pasting :-(
Good game to win ;-)
Good game to win ;-)
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Exiled Tim (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:03
Glad to see Matt Wood get some runs, shame it's against us. I bet Caddy's pleased he isn't playing, but to be honest our attack has threatened to be clobbered for a while.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:11
48-1 off 5, up with the rate so far...
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:27
Not glad to see any of this.
Is there anyone who will call this bowling performance anything but appalling?
Why did Phillips only bowl 6 when he was going at 3.33?
6 other bowlers used all going for more than 9 per over.
Might as well have bowled Hildreth and Trescothick, they couldn't have done worse could they?
Is there anyone who will call this bowling performance anything but appalling?
Why did Phillips only bowl 6 when he was going at 3.33?
6 other bowlers used all going for more than 9 per over.
Might as well have bowled Hildreth and Trescothick, they couldn't have done worse could they?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:31
Phillips's 6 was his maximum allowed.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: edinburghbil (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:33
Didn't MT say that he experimented with bowling earlier in the year, but it wasn't a success and he wasn't going to repeat it ?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:45
Less said about this one, the better. Looks like we will be thrashed.
Still, it's not as bad as I feared, based on what my phone was telling me. The Orange scorecard said that we had three bowlers who had not completed their overs and also said that Langer bowled three overs and Kieswetter two!!!!
I'm afraid David Hussey in an exceptional player and it was obviously his day today. Thank God Caddy did not have to play this one.
Still, it's not as bad as I feared, based on what my phone was telling me. The Orange scorecard said that we had three bowlers who had not completed their overs and also said that Langer bowled three overs and Kieswetter two!!!!
I'm afraid David Hussey in an exceptional player and it was obviously his day today. Thank God Caddy did not have to play this one.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:45
Of course Mike. Thanks it was a rain affected game DURRR
So what the hell was Ben doing right that everyone else got so horribly horribly wrong I wonder?
They seem to be off for rain at 73 for 3 or they've gone back to main programming with the game in an important place because there is no commentary on the link just the Radio Bristol mainstream 'Travel Show'
Cricinfo is all over the place this afternoon.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:19:17:51:18 by Grockle.
So what the hell was Ben doing right that everyone else got so horribly horribly wrong I wonder?
They seem to be off for rain at 73 for 3 or they've gone back to main programming with the game in an important place because there is no commentary on the link just the Radio Bristol mainstream 'Travel Show'
Cricinfo is all over the place this afternoon.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:19:17:51:18 by Grockle.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:52
Disturbed to hear that the fielding was very poor, too.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:52
Presumably we are behind the d/l target ?
Grizzzly
Grizzzly
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: SheptonPaul (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:52
Do they need to have had 10 overs for it to count as a match?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:54
Not sure in a rain affected one. Think it's 5 overs but it could be 25% of the overs available.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:57
Just put us out of our misery, please, umpires/weather.
We've clearly been second best and deserve to lose anyway.
I guess this will serve as a bit of a wake-up call for everyone ahead of the H & G at Old Trafford...
We've clearly been second best and deserve to lose anyway.
I guess this will serve as a bit of a wake-up call for everyone ahead of the H & G at Old Trafford...
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Exiled Tim (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 17:58
It said it all for me when Brian Rose was quoted as saying that Willo was rested for the CC, but we still wanted to win the Pro 40. We should always play our best X1.
It's pitiful, though, that so many of our bowlers got thumped.
It's pitiful, though, that so many of our bowlers got thumped.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: SheptonPaul (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 18:02
Essex's 191 off 18 v Glos doesn't look like enough!
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 18:12
Cricinfo have been showing the same score for 20 minutes with absolutely no indication as to why the score has not moved.
If we get away with this one because we've only played 9 overs then we have been amazingly lucky.
One bowler wouldn't have made much of a difference here Botham. 30 runs perhaps?
Morale is the important part of this. We must keep up the spirits in the gaps between Championship games in order to maintain the momentum into those four day matches because the Championship MUST be the priority.
With our present resources as they are and with Caddick not seeming to be the partner for CW that we hoped (or he hoped) we must get the right people in the team for the Championship games and that meant playing both Ben and Mark in this. Alfonso had to play because he has been our best one day bowler so it would have been Charl or Wes I would suppose.
Given that situation and Worcestershire on Tuesday I don't see Charl being 'rested' as any kind of decrease in our one day strengthin a pretty certain rain affected game, except in retrospect.
If Charl had played Wes would not have unless they replaced Arul with Neil (and I might have even done that if I'd had the choice). We don't have the players to win the Pro40 AND the LVCC.
The choice is a no brainer personally but we do have a squad that should be able to perform a hell of a lot better with the ball than this debacle.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:19:18:15:11 by Grockle.
If we get away with this one because we've only played 9 overs then we have been amazingly lucky.
One bowler wouldn't have made much of a difference here Botham. 30 runs perhaps?
Morale is the important part of this. We must keep up the spirits in the gaps between Championship games in order to maintain the momentum into those four day matches because the Championship MUST be the priority.
With our present resources as they are and with Caddick not seeming to be the partner for CW that we hoped (or he hoped) we must get the right people in the team for the Championship games and that meant playing both Ben and Mark in this. Alfonso had to play because he has been our best one day bowler so it would have been Charl or Wes I would suppose.
Given that situation and Worcestershire on Tuesday I don't see Charl being 'rested' as any kind of decrease in our one day strengthin a pretty certain rain affected game, except in retrospect.
If Charl had played Wes would not have unless they replaced Arul with Neil (and I might have even done that if I'd had the choice). We don't have the players to win the Pro40 AND the LVCC.
The choice is a no brainer personally but we do have a squad that should be able to perform a hell of a lot better with the ball than this debacle.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:19:18:15:11 by Grockle.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 18:16
It seems that rain has stopped play in the Pro 40 according to Cricinfo
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 18:18
If no more play because of the weather it will be a no result.
7.25 is the cut off time.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:19:18:21:15 by Mike BOS.
7.25 is the cut off time.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:19:18:21:15 by Mike BOS.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 18:19
Yep, Grockle we certainly do not have the depth of resources within our squad to fight campaigns on more than one front.
If we lose this one, which we will unless an insufficient number of overs have been bowled for a result, then I would quickly expect to see us start resting people that are key to the CC campaign.
If we lose this one, which we will unless an insufficient number of overs have been bowled for a result, then I would quickly expect to see us start resting people that are key to the CC campaign.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Exiled Tim (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 18:22
There's a lot of bright colours on the rainfall radar, so it could be the great escape!
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 18:27
I think we have got a 'Get out of Jail Free' card !
Grizzzly
Grizzzly
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 18:29
I know "old pig headed one" will be keen to say that we are out to win the Pro40 but it is the perfect campaign to get the guys in we want to be in our 2010 squad and give them some first team play.
I don't mean all at once and I don't mean people not up to it but I would mean Edwards, Durston, Gazzard (even if you play Craig as a batsman), Jones (get him back and get him in or come clean and let him go) the bowler and Jones the promising one, Coombes etc. What does the finish in the Pro40 mean this season? Does it relate to anything except access to prize money?
I don't mean all at once and I don't mean people not up to it but I would mean Edwards, Durston, Gazzard (even if you play Craig as a batsman), Jones (get him back and get him in or come clean and let him go) the bowler and Jones the promising one, Coombes etc. What does the finish in the Pro40 mean this season? Does it relate to anything except access to prize money?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 18:30
It certainly was a lucky escape.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: edinburghbil (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 18:31
"Don't panic, Captain Mainwaring!" The rain has saved us!
Let's hope the Aussies don't join in with this recent trend of great eascapes tomorrow!!
It's a case of "Pick yourselves up, dust yourselves off and start all over again" for the lads today, but at least we got a point!!
Let's hope the Aussies don't join in with this recent trend of great eascapes tomorrow!!
It's a case of "Pick yourselves up, dust yourselves off and start all over again" for the lads today, but at least we got a point!!
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 18:33
That's an unusually strong posting re JL Grockle. Or am I mis-reading it ?
Grizzzly
Grizzzly
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 18:56
Why Grizz? Don't you think him a little stubborn?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 19:00
Nope, Grockle, there's nothing at stake bar prize money at the moment.
HOWEVER, if the P20 is binned, then the Pro 40 will, presumably, survive after all.
Not sure if they could enforce relegation this season, though, having said there would not be any?
But I agree - I want to see some of the younger players that are in reserve and I'm also sick to death of Edwards not being given a chance in this (or other) short formats.
At some point, Langer's going to have to either stick or twist - by which I mean either he makes some limited overs runs, or he's going to have to be big enough to drop himself for the short stuff. Certainly, there is nothing obvious to be gained by playing Langer in short games on his present form.
HOWEVER, if the P20 is binned, then the Pro 40 will, presumably, survive after all.
Not sure if they could enforce relegation this season, though, having said there would not be any?
But I agree - I want to see some of the younger players that are in reserve and I'm also sick to death of Edwards not being given a chance in this (or other) short formats.
At some point, Langer's going to have to either stick or twist - by which I mean either he makes some limited overs runs, or he's going to have to be big enough to drop himself for the short stuff. Certainly, there is nothing obvious to be gained by playing Langer in short games on his present form.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 19:08
Have to say, as well, that I feel very sorry for Matt Wood and Notts.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 19:17
I would like to see Edwards come in for Langer, and Trescothick take over as captain.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Exiled Tim (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 19:18
Please could anyone tell me anything positive that JL is offering to our one day side at present?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Tractor (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 19:21
I've been watching the televised golf (blimey, tennis first now golf!!!), flitting between it and obtaining the latest score from ceefax, and cricinfo on the pc. What utter cods these information systems were. Langer and Kieswetter bowling? 1.5 of an over bowled - meaning an injury? Frozen scores (it's been quite warm I thought)? At one point Somerset's score disappeared completely off cricinfo. When there's no radio commentary is it always like that? I really must try and get to a few games.
My understanding about today's game is it looked like Notts would complete a 10th over but for our physio 'rushing' on to the pitch with a new pair of mits for Craig who'd spilt some cider over his earlier in the innings (warnings about drinking and on-driving here). Then the rains came.
My understanding about today's game is it looked like Notts would complete a 10th over but for our physio 'rushing' on to the pitch with a new pair of mits for Craig who'd spilt some cider over his earlier in the innings (warnings about drinking and on-driving here). Then the rains came.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 19:51
Quote:Botham
Please could anyone tell me anything positive that JL is offering to our one day side at present?
I've heard he makes a cracking cup of tea.
Trego for England
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 19:53
His captaincy Botham...that is what he is. It's also been a little while since a one day game but in the last 17 he's led Somerset to 14 wins so something must be going right and it can't all be down to everyone else thought I realise you personally think so.
If he's staying (and I fpor one don't think he should) then I've no real problem with him being part of the side but if not then here is an opportunity for the candidates for next year to put their cases for captaincy as the first competition they will take on in the season is the one day affair.
If he's staying (and I fpor one don't think he should) then I've no real problem with him being part of the side but if not then here is an opportunity for the candidates for next year to put their cases for captaincy as the first competition they will take on in the season is the one day affair.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 19:54
The scorecards really were a shambles. I nearly had to rush out of the pub in which I was watching proceedings at Lord's to come back home and demand to know 'what was going off out there?'
When I saw that Langer had, supposedly, decided to bowl himself for 18 balls that had gone for 42 runs and that both of Thomas and Turner were stuck on something .1 overs (implying injuries to both) and then saw that Craig had 'bowled 2 overs as well,' then I thought that the four horsemen must be nigh.
When I saw that Langer had, supposedly, decided to bowl himself for 18 balls that had gone for 42 runs and that both of Thomas and Turner were stuck on something .1 overs (implying injuries to both) and then saw that Craig had 'bowled 2 overs as well,' then I thought that the four horsemen must be nigh.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 19:56
think its pretty much a done dea JL returning isn't it?
agreed re his captaincy, he gets no credit when we win but gets slated when we lose, hardly a balanced view of things
agreed re his captaincy, he gets no credit when we win but gets slated when we lose, hardly a balanced view of things
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 20:03
If Langer really has already won his contract for next year, then maybe there is some sort of tiny hope that he might drop himself from the one-day side, if needs be?
If not, it's even more unlikely that he would leave himself out as it's his captaincy which is behind his bid for a new deal. He would not get one if he was not the captain, surely?
If not, it's even more unlikely that he would leave himself out as it's his captaincy which is behind his bid for a new deal. He would not get one if he was not the captain, surely?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 20:11
Where does it say it's already agreed? We give up a HUGE option if we take him again and I'm yet to be convinced that he has a record that justifies his place as a batsman above some of those we already have who cannot get in the side.
As a captain? Well he has his merits but not enough to cut our options of signing a good international bowler of some kind to fill the huge hole left by Caddick which will not be filled by any on the staff presently (including any returning or re-defined 'kolpaks').
Whoever decides the Langer re-signature needs to realise they take FULL responsibility for our bowling attack next year as well! Don't rely on David Stiff to close the gap. His luck may not last and he has a LOT to learn and no time to learn it if it goes. Unless we can persuade someone with the stature (and less injuries) of Matthew Hoggard from the domestic market we HAVE to get a well established wicket taker (of any kind) and that may require a) the money and b) the international slot that Justin now fills.
So unless he is going to suddenly be eligible under some other rules we cannot afford to give him a new contract.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:19:20:13:38 by Grockle.
As a captain? Well he has his merits but not enough to cut our options of signing a good international bowler of some kind to fill the huge hole left by Caddick which will not be filled by any on the staff presently (including any returning or re-defined 'kolpaks').
Whoever decides the Langer re-signature needs to realise they take FULL responsibility for our bowling attack next year as well! Don't rely on David Stiff to close the gap. His luck may not last and he has a LOT to learn and no time to learn it if it goes. Unless we can persuade someone with the stature (and less injuries) of Matthew Hoggard from the domestic market we HAVE to get a well established wicket taker (of any kind) and that may require a) the money and b) the international slot that Justin now fills.
So unless he is going to suddenly be eligible under some other rules we cannot afford to give him a new contract.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:19:20:13:38 by Grockle.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 20:13
Grockle - I think the key question regarding Langer and this year's much improved one-day form is this;
Is Langer actually doing something out on the field - during the game - as captain that is making the critical difference?...
OR
Has the improvement been down to either the off-field work we put in during the winter on our one-day cricket - much trumpeted by Rose and, no doubt, led by Langer and Hurry OR to much improved performances by one or two key players??
For instance, Banger could not buy a run in last year's FPT but scored a fair few this time around. And Zander's one-day batting has been something of a revelation - especially in the T20.
If the improvement is down to either the 2nd or 3rd reason, then we don't necessarily need Langer out there on the field?
Is Langer actually doing something out on the field - during the game - as captain that is making the critical difference?...
OR
Has the improvement been down to either the off-field work we put in during the winter on our one-day cricket - much trumpeted by Rose and, no doubt, led by Langer and Hurry OR to much improved performances by one or two key players??
For instance, Banger could not buy a run in last year's FPT but scored a fair few this time around. And Zander's one-day batting has been something of a revelation - especially in the T20.
If the improvement is down to either the 2nd or 3rd reason, then we don't necessarily need Langer out there on the field?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Loyal of Lhasa. (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 20:13
Australia could be looking for a new left-handed opening bat before the end of this summer...
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 20:13
I read something from Brian Rose a month or so ago saying we'd offered him a contract for 2010, he was keen but just had a few things to sort out.
I read it as we HAVE offered him a 2010 contract and it was now in his hands to accept, and indication seemed to be it was pretty much a formality, i may be wrong
I read it as we HAVE offered him a 2010 contract and it was now in his hands to accept, and indication seemed to be it was pretty much a formality, i may be wrong
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 20:54
Good points made in AG's post of 20.13.
As for JL. Well Grockle I have to agree with you re his stubbornness; certainly don't think he will win any awards for maleability !
I find myself in a constant dilemma re JL. His single minded approach has taken us a long way in the last few years & we find ourselves within touching distance of the ultimate prize. Massive achievement.
On the other side, he certainly does seem to take single mindedness to an extreme and one wonders what effect that has on morale behind the scenes (albeit our results/performances don't seem to suggest any real issues).
I really don't know what NE has to do to get an opportunity in the First XI.
Wonder what the outcome will be re 2010 contracts re JL & NE:
1) Both sign.
2) JL signs & NE goes.
3) NE signs & JL goes.
4) Both go.
Votes on a postcard please to SCCC..................!!
Grizzzly
P.S. (Didn't include Wes. Nothing against him, but the permutations would get way too complicated for a simple soul like me !)
As for JL. Well Grockle I have to agree with you re his stubbornness; certainly don't think he will win any awards for maleability !
I find myself in a constant dilemma re JL. His single minded approach has taken us a long way in the last few years & we find ourselves within touching distance of the ultimate prize. Massive achievement.
On the other side, he certainly does seem to take single mindedness to an extreme and one wonders what effect that has on morale behind the scenes (albeit our results/performances don't seem to suggest any real issues).
I really don't know what NE has to do to get an opportunity in the First XI.
Wonder what the outcome will be re 2010 contracts re JL & NE:
1) Both sign.
2) JL signs & NE goes.
3) NE signs & JL goes.
4) Both go.
Votes on a postcard please to SCCC..................!!
Grizzzly
P.S. (Didn't include Wes. Nothing against him, but the permutations would get way too complicated for a simple soul like me !)
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 21:18
Well it certainly hasn't been publicised as a done deal and as I say, whoever confirms that (Rosey I assume) must take full responsibility for our 2010 bowling issues as well.
I have to agree Grizz that that stubborn streak can be a boon or a curse and I also think it has been both in his time here.
But as BJ says a lot. We have to remember where we were and even if the changes haven't all been down to JL he is part of the catalyst that made them happen. Not all good but certainly not all bad by any means.
If he stays I can't see how Neil can because it takes out a top five batting spot and ZdB is not a definite to leave either.
If I was NE, unless, as AG says, we give him some one day input this season then I'd be on my way anyway. There isn't enough cricket in the season any more if you are only considered for four day games.
I have to agree Grizz that that stubborn streak can be a boon or a curse and I also think it has been both in his time here.
But as BJ says a lot. We have to remember where we were and even if the changes haven't all been down to JL he is part of the catalyst that made them happen. Not all good but certainly not all bad by any means.
If he stays I can't see how Neil can because it takes out a top five batting spot and ZdB is not a definite to leave either.
If I was NE, unless, as AG says, we give him some one day input this season then I'd be on my way anyway. There isn't enough cricket in the season any more if you are only considered for four day games.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 21:20
Rose said today Zander and Alfie contracts should be sorted out this week so i think that means they are both definites pretty much to be here next year
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 21:32
Can't say I'm unhappy about that either WSM. Would rather have them on our side and they've certainly earned the right this year.
They both gain from having British wives.
They both gain from having British wives.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 21:44
Yes i understood the wives being british helped us.
Charl seems to qualify by residency next year and with Craig being "british" by next March think thats all of them sorted.
Arul i believe had a 2 year permit/visa granted at the start of the year too, and i guess with his increased participation in the 1st team this year that should help when renewing in future too
Charl seems to qualify by residency next year and with Craig being "british" by next March think thats all of them sorted.
Arul i believe had a 2 year permit/visa granted at the start of the year too, and i guess with his increased participation in the 1st team this year that should help when renewing in future too
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 19/07/2009 22:57
Arul is unlikely to have his work permit renewed after 2010 because he has no international cricket credentials and won't get them in the present circumstances. He needs to get his citizenship sorted out as it should have been a long long time ago.
It seems that at one point in all this all he had to do was to make an application for a national insurance number and that would have sorted it all. I'm not sure how solid that rumour is but he was aware of the issue (or the club was) when he couldn't fulfill an U19 England tour commitment because he was found to have a Malaysian passport.
Doesn't sound too hopeful does it. But that's for worry in the Autumn of 2011.
Who will open the bowling for us with Charl in 2010 and what is the situation with some of the Somerset squad who were born a little nearer to the county HQ I wonder?
It seems that at one point in all this all he had to do was to make an application for a national insurance number and that would have sorted it all. I'm not sure how solid that rumour is but he was aware of the issue (or the club was) when he couldn't fulfill an U19 England tour commitment because he was found to have a Malaysian passport.
Doesn't sound too hopeful does it. But that's for worry in the Autumn of 2011.
Who will open the bowling for us with Charl in 2010 and what is the situation with some of the Somerset squad who were born a little nearer to the county HQ I wonder?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 08:29
If you reading of the Arul situation is correct, Grockle, then we should have been playing Neil Edwards instead of him all season, anyway, on the basis that there is no reason (other than our own choice) why Neil should not have a long-term future with SCCC.
Does not sound as though that is possible for Arul, unless he can somehow get citizenship? And my understanding was that he has to start again with that as he spent too much time overseas one winter, meaning the the clock starts again - and I think he needs at least five consecutive years or something? At least that's the rule for SA, may well be longer for Malaysia?
And I certainly agree with you, Grockle, that it would be folly for the club to assume that David Stiff will become a 50 wicket a season man on a regular basis.
Does not sound as though that is possible for Arul, unless he can somehow get citizenship? And my understanding was that he has to start again with that as he spent too much time overseas one winter, meaning the the clock starts again - and I think he needs at least five consecutive years or something? At least that's the rule for SA, may well be longer for Malaysia?
And I certainly agree with you, Grockle, that it would be folly for the club to assume that David Stiff will become a 50 wicket a season man on a regular basis.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 08:35
Arul's work permit is OK for next year AG it's the year after that is the problem.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 08:43
Even so...
I think the club needs to have at least half an eye on the long-term future, where possible.*
One assumes that Langer will surely not STILL be here in 2011, so that would be one batting place we'd have to find a replacement for. Will Zander stay indefinitely? Craig will probably be in the England team by then (although I admit that Prior's superb batting might make things interesting,) and even Hildreth could have kicked onto that level in two years' time.
* Obviously, this is probably academic as someone (presumably Langer) has probably decided that, for some reason, Neil does not have a long term future here, anyway.
I think the club needs to have at least half an eye on the long-term future, where possible.*
One assumes that Langer will surely not STILL be here in 2011, so that would be one batting place we'd have to find a replacement for. Will Zander stay indefinitely? Craig will probably be in the England team by then (although I admit that Prior's superb batting might make things interesting,) and even Hildreth could have kicked onto that level in two years' time.
* Obviously, this is probably academic as someone (presumably Langer) has probably decided that, for some reason, Neil does not have a long term future here, anyway.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Ronniesabre (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 08:44
Grockle, fully agree with you re the JL position. We need bowlers and we need them quick. Maybe we need to look at Shazhad, Hoggard, Jones etc.
On the merits of JL he hasn't scored a single 50 for Somerset in any match since 1 May. This must be the worst return of any overseas player in county cricket and for me he doesn't even merit getting in the Championship team at present.
On the merits of JL he hasn't scored a single 50 for Somerset in any match since 1 May. This must be the worst return of any overseas player in county cricket and for me he doesn't even merit getting in the Championship team at present.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 09:55
If IDB had had that kind of trot, Langer would have surely had him out of the team quicker than you could say 'boo.'
It would be just plain silly for the club to give Langer a new deal unless and until they can be assured that this is simply a trough in form, as opposed to him having hit the wall due to his "eye," going or something like that. And the only way Langer could provide reasonable assurance about that would be to go on a run of good scores.
It would be just plain silly for the club to give Langer a new deal unless and until they can be assured that this is simply a trough in form, as opposed to him having hit the wall due to his "eye," going or something like that. And the only way Langer could provide reasonable assurance about that would be to go on a run of good scores.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 10:04
I mentioned your post to Ivo in the last game AG and without him seeing your words, he also commented on the fact that he thought JL's eye was going.
Great minds and all that......
Great minds and all that......
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 10:14
It was Ivo's article in which he said that 'Langer was increasingly falling LBW,' which really put that possibility into my mind - allied, of course, to the poor trot and his age.
If the point is that the club want to re-pay JL for the changes that he has helped to implement, then I think they need to look to see whether (or not) some way can be found in which JL and Andy Hurry could work together on all the off-field stuff i.e. effectively dual coaches - maybe Hurry on the fitness side and Langer on tactics and technique?
Of course the major impediment to a deal of that type would surely be that we don't want to pay overseas player-type money for a coach? Not when we already have one anyway?
If the point is that the club want to re-pay JL for the changes that he has helped to implement, then I think they need to look to see whether (or not) some way can be found in which JL and Andy Hurry could work together on all the off-field stuff i.e. effectively dual coaches - maybe Hurry on the fitness side and Langer on tactics and technique?
Of course the major impediment to a deal of that type would surely be that we don't want to pay overseas player-type money for a coach? Not when we already have one anyway?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 11:17
I also think it affects their ECB monies if they have an international coach even in tandem.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 11:26
I didn't realise it included the coaching side of things as well (the ECB system, I mean.) Would make a lot of sense if it did. I bet the FA wish they had thought of it a decade or so ago - then they might not have had to hire an Italian on a mega-bucks deal (and a Swede before that.)
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 11:48
I think it does..if not the plans were that it would. And like you I think it ought to if it doesn't.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 13:09
An honest assessment by Mr Hurry of yesterday's game on the other site.
Precis..
Fielded badly and only Ben bowled anything like.
Precis..
Fielded badly and only Ben bowled anything like.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: geordie moonraker (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 22:37
I'm not anti Langer but I've got to the stage when I think of his batting in the same way as Willoughby's. I don't expect amything but am sometimes pleasantly surprised. But for the overseas player who is a batsman it shouldn't be like that. Noe watch a tone against Worcester to make us eat our words.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 20/07/2009 22:41
Yep, he likes nothing more than criticism to react to.
Someone needs to give him some abuse on the way to the wicket as his stubborness when batting is his biggest asset.
Someone needs to give him some abuse on the way to the wicket as his stubborness when batting is his biggest asset.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 07:43
I wish half our batsmen could be relied on to average 49 in their bad seasons!
Edited to replace CC average (38) with List A average as this is a Pro-40 thread!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:21:08:06:51 by Frome Exile.
Edited to replace CC average (38) with List A average as this is a Pro-40 thread!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:21:08:06:51 by Frome Exile.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 08:36
No 50 since May 1, FE. One big unbeaten ton vs Durham on the final day pitch which (HE says) is 'impossible to bowl teams out on,' massively distorting the figures.
All the recent evidence is that Langer is a busted flush.
He needs to score runs and score them soon or be a big enough man to drop himself. If he persists with not scoring and yet keeps picking himself, he is liable to lose the respect of his players.
And whatever changes he has wrought since coming here, he has surely been able to so - in large part - because of his great achievements within the game and the respect that they engendered.
But once one gets to the point where one can no longer score runs, how long can that respect be expected to continue?
Edited to remove any impression that I meant that he needed to score his runs at a rapid rate.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:21:08:47:41 by AGod.
All the recent evidence is that Langer is a busted flush.
He needs to score runs and score them soon or be a big enough man to drop himself. If he persists with not scoring and yet keeps picking himself, he is liable to lose the respect of his players.
And whatever changes he has wrought since coming here, he has surely been able to so - in large part - because of his great achievements within the game and the respect that they engendered.
But once one gets to the point where one can no longer score runs, how long can that respect be expected to continue?
Edited to remove any impression that I meant that he needed to score his runs at a rapid rate.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:21:08:47:41 by AGod.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 08:43
He won't drop himself AG and it's unrealistic to expect him to in Champpionship games. He was employed as the captain of the side and he can't fulfill that job unless he's on the pitch.
His position in the side is not a problem with the rest of the batting firing AND despite the fact he hasn't hit the big scores, he was as much a part of the huge win against Yorkshire as the centurion and the stroke makers. He is a highly experienced batsman in a young batting line-up. I'm more interested in the duration of his innings than the size of his scores. If he can stay there and marshall a big score then I'm happy with that personally
But it is a case that the club should be letting him know this is his last season so as a responsible captain of the club he could then use the Pro40 to give his successor experience.
His position in the side is not a problem with the rest of the batting firing AND despite the fact he hasn't hit the big scores, he was as much a part of the huge win against Yorkshire as the centurion and the stroke makers. He is a highly experienced batsman in a young batting line-up. I'm more interested in the duration of his innings than the size of his scores. If he can stay there and marshall a big score then I'm happy with that personally
But it is a case that the club should be letting him know this is his last season so as a responsible captain of the club he could then use the Pro40 to give his successor experience.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 08:52
“His position in the side is not a problem with the rest of the batting firing.”
But therein lies the key problem, Grockle.
Not all of our batsmen will remain in form for the whole season. By the law of averages, some of them will hit a trough in form at some point….. In which case we will need Langer to step it up then (or bad totals will result)… Is he going to be up to that job? The answer is likely to be no unless he starts making runs before others go off the boil.
At some point, if he does not start scoring, then maybe Mr Rose will have to summon the resolve to step in, if we cannot rely on Langer to drop himself.
But therein lies the key problem, Grockle.
Not all of our batsmen will remain in form for the whole season. By the law of averages, some of them will hit a trough in form at some point….. In which case we will need Langer to step it up then (or bad totals will result)… Is he going to be up to that job? The answer is likely to be no unless he starts making runs before others go off the boil.
At some point, if he does not start scoring, then maybe Mr Rose will have to summon the resolve to step in, if we cannot rely on Langer to drop himself.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 08:53
Another point, of course, is that the club lets it be known that this is Langer's last season, that could also cause him to lose some authority.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 09:01
I always ignore averages, it is total runs that counts.
A man with his batting reputation over the years you would expect him to be alongside Trescothick with total runs scored.
At the time of typing I haven’t look to see where he is in relation to Trescothick. ------ stopped typing while I look.
Trescothick 837 CC runs
Langer 422 CC runs.
Is that good enough?
----------------------------------------------------------
A bit more details Trescothick is averaging just over 100 runs a match and has faced 1361 balls.
Justin Langer average per match is just over 50. He has faced only 839 balls.
It could be broken down to how many balls faced each innings.
Here is the table. [stats.cricinfo.com]
Edited to add more stats.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:21:09:20:39 by Mike BOS.
A man with his batting reputation over the years you would expect him to be alongside Trescothick with total runs scored.
At the time of typing I haven’t look to see where he is in relation to Trescothick. ------ stopped typing while I look.
Trescothick 837 CC runs
Langer 422 CC runs.
Is that good enough?
----------------------------------------------------------
A bit more details Trescothick is averaging just over 100 runs a match and has faced 1361 balls.
Justin Langer average per match is just over 50. He has faced only 839 balls.
It could be broken down to how many balls faced each innings.
Here is the table. [stats.cricinfo.com]
Edited to add more stats.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:21:09:20:39 by Mike BOS.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 09:25
And that puts Langer on pace for the princely sum of 844 runs for the season*
* and even that assumes that he does not carry on batting as he has in the last five games or so. If he bats like he has in the last five, I doubt he'd get more than 650 runs in the whole season.
* and even that assumes that he does not carry on batting as he has in the last five games or so. If he bats like he has in the last five, I doubt he'd get more than 650 runs in the whole season.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 09:42
Quote:I'm more interested in the duration of his innings than the size of his scores.
Quite so, Grockle: and one could also consider the partnerships to which he has contributed rather than his raw scores.
Of course the averages don't tell it all; and I was being a little mischeivous in my earlier post. Yes, JL's having a bad trot, but I think the use of expressions like "busted flush" is so premature as to be bordering on the offensive!
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 09:52
Quote:I always ignore averages, it is total runs that counts.
With respect Mike, that's bunkum!
Neither average or aggregate tells the story in isolation.
Hildreth for example has over 700 runs - great: except that 303 of them were in the arguably meaningless match against Warks.
That one innings is almost the entire difference between his season and Langer's.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 10:03
The bottom line is he isn't scoring runs and we cannot carry him forever. We've been carrying him since May 1 and it's now July 21.
How much longer should we be prepared to go on carrying him for, before we send him to the seconds to regain some form or something?
How much longer should we be prepared to go on carrying him for, before we send him to the seconds to regain some form or something?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 10:04
"Quite so, Grockle: and one could also consider the partnerships to which he has contributed rather than his raw scores. "
One could if one were desperate to find a reason to keep picking him. But one should not have to be desperate to find a reason to pick one's overseas player.
One could if one were desperate to find a reason to keep picking him. But one should not have to be desperate to find a reason to pick one's overseas player.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 10:14
Now you have done it FE.
OK remove Hildreth’s top score and remove Langer’s top score.
Hildreth.
728 – 303 = 425 from 12 innings
Langer
422 – 122 = 300 from 12 innings.
I also agree with Grockle if he is building partnership.
I know the stats don’t give how long at the crease he is staying, but the number of balls faced gives some indication.
If you remove Phillips from the list he has faced fewer balls than all the ones above him.
On the theory of building partnerships Arul Suppiah balls faced of 956 indicates to me that he is doing his job of staying with Trescothick.
OK remove Hildreth’s top score and remove Langer’s top score.
Hildreth.
728 – 303 = 425 from 12 innings
Langer
422 – 122 = 300 from 12 innings.
I also agree with Grockle if he is building partnership.
I know the stats don’t give how long at the crease he is staying, but the number of balls faced gives some indication.
If you remove Phillips from the list he has faced fewer balls than all the ones above him.
On the theory of building partnerships Arul Suppiah balls faced of 956 indicates to me that he is doing his job of staying with Trescothick.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 10:24
Not all of our batsmen will remain in form for the whole season. By the law of averages, some of them will hit a trough in form at some point…..
Quite so AG so improve your argument by considering the other batsmen who have troughs rather than just Langer. We kept faith with Hildreth and Suppiah. What they have in better eyes, he has in massive experience.
I don't see how it will decrease his authority to know the man is in his last year. Old players retire. It doesn't decrease the respect players have for Caddick knowing it is his last season. The one thing this man has in spades is confidence and a record few can match. If his authority was that tenuous we would have seen examples of its fragility already.
We win with him and I can see little evidence at the moment to be confident that we would do the same without him at present.
Quite so AG so improve your argument by considering the other batsmen who have troughs rather than just Langer. We kept faith with Hildreth and Suppiah. What they have in better eyes, he has in massive experience.
I don't see how it will decrease his authority to know the man is in his last year. Old players retire. It doesn't decrease the respect players have for Caddick knowing it is his last season. The one thing this man has in spades is confidence and a record few can match. If his authority was that tenuous we would have seen examples of its fragility already.
We win with him and I can see little evidence at the moment to be confident that we would do the same without him at present.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 10:34
"We win with him and I can see little evidence at the moment to be confident that we would do the same without him at present."
Yes, but by definition, no such 'evidence,' could even theoretically be forthcoming for so long as he remains in the team? The only 'evidence,' is that we used to be rubbish in the period immediately before he came here. I think we do need to remember that we were rubbish for 3-4 years or so, not 30 years!! We were also good for a time under Jamie Cox, as you will recall.
I think you and I would both agree that we're going to have to manage without Langer sooner rather than later? (be that in 2010 or 2011).
IF we can cope without him, then we're more likely to do it when he himself is not getting any runs (i.e. the sub should hopefully score more than him)?
If it really is the case that we can't cope without Langer (or someone of similar stature from overseas to lead us) then we need to find out about that before we make our decision as to our next overseas player?*
It seems to me that a time when Langer himself is scoring very few runs is an ideal time to see whether (or not) we suddenly fall in a heap when he's not out there in the middle.
* In all truth we have to hope that the changes in personnel since we were last rubbish have been as big a part of it as Langer. If not, we're in trouble because that means we will have to carry Langer until he's had enough and then at that point, will fall apart in a heap anyway.
Yes, but by definition, no such 'evidence,' could even theoretically be forthcoming for so long as he remains in the team? The only 'evidence,' is that we used to be rubbish in the period immediately before he came here. I think we do need to remember that we were rubbish for 3-4 years or so, not 30 years!! We were also good for a time under Jamie Cox, as you will recall.
I think you and I would both agree that we're going to have to manage without Langer sooner rather than later? (be that in 2010 or 2011).
IF we can cope without him, then we're more likely to do it when he himself is not getting any runs (i.e. the sub should hopefully score more than him)?
If it really is the case that we can't cope without Langer (or someone of similar stature from overseas to lead us) then we need to find out about that before we make our decision as to our next overseas player?*
It seems to me that a time when Langer himself is scoring very few runs is an ideal time to see whether (or not) we suddenly fall in a heap when he's not out there in the middle.
* In all truth we have to hope that the changes in personnel since we were last rubbish have been as big a part of it as Langer. If not, we're in trouble because that means we will have to carry Langer until he's had enough and then at that point, will fall apart in a heap anyway.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Loyal of Lhasa. (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 10:36
The elephant in the room (one of the most ridiculous clichés in current vogue) is that nobody in officialdom seems to be saying anything about who might be our next captain. Is there any "succession planning" (that's management gobbledicook, a superior form of cliché) taking place behind the scenes? Certainly I hope it is not Trescothick, who is best concentrating on being simply the best batsman in the land.
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 10:37
Quite so, LoL.
And agree with you about Banger, too.
And agree with you about Banger, too.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 10:48
We don't carry him. The man is not some kind of idiot contributing nothing and taking up a valuable place for some young genius waiting in the wings and ready to score in three figures every game.
Who will replace him in your great plan and who will captain the side?
His average isn't zero and there is no reason to change a side that has the confidence to win when there presently is little problem with the batting and loads with the bowling.
Simply don't see the logic of your argument except that it allows Neil Edwards to prove one way or the other if he is up to it and that can be done without upsetting the balance of a Championship side looking a possiblity for winning our first silverware ever in that competition.
He seems to have faith in the batting ability of his side and I for one presently have enough faith in his ability to get the best out of the men he leads. I just don't see how we can afford him next year given our bowling requirements. As LoL and you agree though. Solving the bowling issue at Justin's expense create a captaincy crisis that i don't have a solution to at present I have to admit.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:21:10:59:42 by Grockle.
Who will replace him in your great plan and who will captain the side?
His average isn't zero and there is no reason to change a side that has the confidence to win when there presently is little problem with the batting and loads with the bowling.
Simply don't see the logic of your argument except that it allows Neil Edwards to prove one way or the other if he is up to it and that can be done without upsetting the balance of a Championship side looking a possiblity for winning our first silverware ever in that competition.
He seems to have faith in the batting ability of his side and I for one presently have enough faith in his ability to get the best out of the men he leads. I just don't see how we can afford him next year given our bowling requirements. As LoL and you agree though. Solving the bowling issue at Justin's expense create a captaincy crisis that i don't have a solution to at present I have to admit.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:21:10:59:42 by Grockle.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 11:01
Quote:Now you have done it FE.
OK remove Hildreth’s top score and remove Langer’s top score.
Hildreth.
728 – 303 = 425 from 12 innings
Langer
422 – 122 = 300 from 12 innings.
You make a slightly different, but equally valid, point Mike.
My point was that had Justin's 122* gone on to 300, as James' only unconcluded innings did, both his aggregate and average would be similar to James' but his level of consistency would be very little different.
What is quite striking is that Justin is averaging 38 with having only passed 50 twice, and with only two not outs. That's surely indicative of consistent (if not prolific) scoring.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 11:16
I don't necessarily accept that there is 'litte problem with the batting and loads with the bowling,' Grockle.
The CC bonus points suggest a slightly different picture. We've frittered away too many batting points, IMO, for a team that if it was going to win the CC was always going to have to do so with a good number of high scoring draws. Because of the issues with the bowling, I don't think it was ever likely that we were suddenly going to win 9 or 10 games in the season?
I'd certainly like to see Neil given a chance and he seems to have scored at least three tons (in all comps) in the last six weeks or so (from what I can gather.) If Neil is to be given a chance, then the ID of the guy to drop out should be based on merit and, at the moment, Langer or Zander are the only contenders. But Zander's one-day form suggests to me that he might click whereas I suspect that Langer's eye is fading (if not gone) and so I don't forsee him coming back to significant form.
As for the captain for this season, IF Caddick is in the team, he can do it, for as long as it would take for the powers-that-be to identify whether (or not) we have a younger guy in the ranks who should step up. If not, we do have other experienced cricketers like Charl and Zander. You may charge that they are not experienced captains, but then I don't think Langer was an experienced captain either? (before he came here)
I should add that I'm not saying - yet - that Langer should not be in the team for this game, or the next one - just that we can't carry him for the whole season if he's not scoring runs.
Of course, I take the point about us currently being in contention for the title, but my suggestion is simply that this issue be reviewed in two or three games time. If Langer does not score in those and the team doesn't win any of those games (and this one looks like it might be heavily curtailed) then the title aspirations would look very thin anyway.
The CC bonus points suggest a slightly different picture. We've frittered away too many batting points, IMO, for a team that if it was going to win the CC was always going to have to do so with a good number of high scoring draws. Because of the issues with the bowling, I don't think it was ever likely that we were suddenly going to win 9 or 10 games in the season?
I'd certainly like to see Neil given a chance and he seems to have scored at least three tons (in all comps) in the last six weeks or so (from what I can gather.) If Neil is to be given a chance, then the ID of the guy to drop out should be based on merit and, at the moment, Langer or Zander are the only contenders. But Zander's one-day form suggests to me that he might click whereas I suspect that Langer's eye is fading (if not gone) and so I don't forsee him coming back to significant form.
As for the captain for this season, IF Caddick is in the team, he can do it, for as long as it would take for the powers-that-be to identify whether (or not) we have a younger guy in the ranks who should step up. If not, we do have other experienced cricketers like Charl and Zander. You may charge that they are not experienced captains, but then I don't think Langer was an experienced captain either? (before he came here)
I should add that I'm not saying - yet - that Langer should not be in the team for this game, or the next one - just that we can't carry him for the whole season if he's not scoring runs.
Of course, I take the point about us currently being in contention for the title, but my suggestion is simply that this issue be reviewed in two or three games time. If Langer does not score in those and the team doesn't win any of those games (and this one looks like it might be heavily curtailed) then the title aspirations would look very thin anyway.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 11:24
Quote:AGod
One big unbeaten ton vs Durham on the final day pitch which (HE says) is 'impossible to bowl teams out on,' massively distorting the figures.
Hardly genuinely a "final day pitch" when there'd been only 24 overs on day 3.
The same pitch that on day 2 saw Langer undefeated with half our score while the rest were shot out for 30 (plus a few extras)!
And his 122* enabled 285 team runs to be added, with partnerships of 27, 15, 197 and 46*.
Against Warks, his 76 from 142 balls was part of two partnerships, one of just 4, but the other of 225.
Against Yorks, his 24 from 35 balls enabled 122 team runs to be added, with partnerships of 15,31 and 76: and it helped take us to within 65 runs of victory.
It's a team game: the team are batting well: and Langer is an intrinsic part of that.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 11:28
Quote:I suspect that Langer's eye is fading (if not gone) and so I don't forsee him coming back to significant form.
I just hope that
a) Justin reads this
b) he rams the notion that he's past it down your throat
c) when he does so, you don't have the temerity to suggest that it's all been a "reverse-hex"
and
d) he figures out who you are and where you live!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:21:11:31:05 by Frome Exile.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 11:43
I'll gladly send my address to Langer, FE.
But I don't think him reading what I have said would have any effect.
You can't overcome a fading eye (if that is his problem) with extra determination, IMO. His method has always invovled shuffling across his stumps and turning length balls to leg. Then, when the bowlers get sick of that and bowl wide of off, he'd square drive or cut them to ribbons. If your eye is going, you will then tend to fall LBW, if that's your approach. But I don't think it reasonable to expect him to invent a new technique at his age.
Moreover, I don't think Langer could ever summon 'extra determination,' because he's always been a bloke who gives everything he has anyway. The guy's a fighter and a scrapper and always has been. Even if his eye is going, he will not curl up in his shell.
But my big worry is that the man's tenacity is such that he will not be able to acknoweldge when the time has come.
But I don't think him reading what I have said would have any effect.
You can't overcome a fading eye (if that is his problem) with extra determination, IMO. His method has always invovled shuffling across his stumps and turning length balls to leg. Then, when the bowlers get sick of that and bowl wide of off, he'd square drive or cut them to ribbons. If your eye is going, you will then tend to fall LBW, if that's your approach. But I don't think it reasonable to expect him to invent a new technique at his age.
Moreover, I don't think Langer could ever summon 'extra determination,' because he's always been a bloke who gives everything he has anyway. The guy's a fighter and a scrapper and always has been. Even if his eye is going, he will not curl up in his shell.
But my big worry is that the man's tenacity is such that he will not be able to acknoweldge when the time has come.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 12:02
You also make good and valid points FE.
I do like these types of discussions; my views are clouded by watching him bat this year, he do seams to be going though a scratchy time as he did at the end of last year.
I will be more than pleased if the second half of the season goes a lot better for him.
I do like these types of discussions; my views are clouded by watching him bat this year, he do seams to be going though a scratchy time as he did at the end of last year.
I will be more than pleased if the second half of the season goes a lot better for him.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 12:06
Yes, Mike, I don't want Langer to fail to score runs. I want all of our players to score runs and take wickets. But I also dispute the notion that captacincy should make someone's place bullet-proof.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 12:07
I haven't seen much of him in the flesh Mike, but from what I have seen, I'd agree that he hasn't looked anywhere near as fluent as he can look. Perhaps it's further testament to his abilities that he can "scratch out" an average of 38.
I do think it quite laughable that a technique which has yielded almost 8000 Test runs at 45 can be dismissed as "shuffling across his stumps and turning length balls to leg".
Hey ho!
I do think it quite laughable that a technique which has yielded almost 8000 Test runs at 45 can be dismissed as "shuffling across his stumps and turning length balls to leg".
Hey ho!
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 12:17
I agree AG a captain very rarely drops himself.
I have seen it happen in the past. There is something at the back of my mind that says Brian Rose dropped himself but I can't be sure.
I have seen it happen in the past. There is something at the back of my mind that says Brian Rose dropped himself but I can't be sure.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 13:19
"I do think it quite laughable that a technique which has yielded almost 8000 Test runs at 45 can be dismissed as "shuffling across his stumps and turning length balls to leg". "
So how, pray, would you describe it, FE? You missed off the second part which is the key part really - that he was so good at doing it, that bowlers would end up bowling wider and often shorter and he was so good at those shots like the square drive and the cut.
I did not in any way "dimiss," this technique, FE. It was a description, not a dismissal.
Whether you like it or not, the reality is that a great many players have had an essentially simple technique. It's not a criticism of him.
So how, pray, would you describe it, FE? You missed off the second part which is the key part really - that he was so good at doing it, that bowlers would end up bowling wider and often shorter and he was so good at those shots like the square drive and the cut.
I did not in any way "dimiss," this technique, FE. It was a description, not a dismissal.
Whether you like it or not, the reality is that a great many players have had an essentially simple technique. It's not a criticism of him.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 13:19
No-one is saying the position of captain is 'bulletprrof' AG but I've seen nothing in here questioning his captaincy in the Championship. Having a captain is a major part of a winning team. Mike Brearly wouldn't have got into the sides he took into winning series on his batting ability. He wasn't there for that his runs were extra and he wasn't an international batsman of Langer's reputation.
Your argument about not having someone in the side just because he is captain fits quite well with giving the captaincy to the senior professional just because he happens to be there.
What would be the point of taking the captaincy off someone who seems to be getting results but is going through a poor spell and giving it to a man with about three weeks experience at the end of a season who is going through a poor spell himself?
If Justin is planned to be here next year, as I've said somewhere else then Neil needs to go because there is little chance of him seeing a front 5 first team berth. However putting him in now changes the front 2, moves a man who has opened all year to number 3 or 4 and takes the helm out of the hands of someone who the side seem to se as their leader and putting that in the hands of God knows who.
Neil isn't in because he didn't do it earlier in the season and batsmen in the side did. He'll stay out because that side is now a unit and is still not losing. His chance comes in the one dayers and IF the side starts to slip.
If he can't get in there then it's 'writing on the wall' time and he should go North. We should be working to keep Neil here by giving him a one day berth and resting people in the batting line-up. I'd like to see that because I'd like to see the international spot go to a bowler but this year isn't over yet.
Our chance is in the Championship and that is the section of our seasom where Langer's captaincy is effective and being seen as effective by those he leads.
Your argument about not having someone in the side just because he is captain fits quite well with giving the captaincy to the senior professional just because he happens to be there.
What would be the point of taking the captaincy off someone who seems to be getting results but is going through a poor spell and giving it to a man with about three weeks experience at the end of a season who is going through a poor spell himself?
If Justin is planned to be here next year, as I've said somewhere else then Neil needs to go because there is little chance of him seeing a front 5 first team berth. However putting him in now changes the front 2, moves a man who has opened all year to number 3 or 4 and takes the helm out of the hands of someone who the side seem to se as their leader and putting that in the hands of God knows who.
Neil isn't in because he didn't do it earlier in the season and batsmen in the side did. He'll stay out because that side is now a unit and is still not losing. His chance comes in the one dayers and IF the side starts to slip.
If he can't get in there then it's 'writing on the wall' time and he should go North. We should be working to keep Neil here by giving him a one day berth and resting people in the batting line-up. I'd like to see that because I'd like to see the international spot go to a bowler but this year isn't over yet.
Our chance is in the Championship and that is the section of our seasom where Langer's captaincy is effective and being seen as effective by those he leads.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 13:39
The way you write is often utterly dismissive, AG, whether or not that is your intention.
The inference that I drew from your statements was that Langer's limited and simplistic technique had only served him so well because he has (sorry, had) a "good eye". "Shuffling" is a word more often used in a derogatory way than a complimentary one when discussing batsmanship, I would suggest.
The best techniques are, as you say, "simple". Your description sounded more like you felt it to be "limited", and the two are quite different.
The inference that I drew from your statements was that Langer's limited and simplistic technique had only served him so well because he has (sorry, had) a "good eye". "Shuffling" is a word more often used in a derogatory way than a complimentary one when discussing batsmanship, I would suggest.
The best techniques are, as you say, "simple". Your description sounded more like you felt it to be "limited", and the two are quite different.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 13:40
"No-one is saying the position of captain is 'bulletprrof' AG but I've seen nothing in here questioning his captaincy in the Championship."
I meant his place as a batsman being bullet-proof just because he is the captain, as opposed to his captaincy itself being bullet-proof.
It isn't necessarily the case that we are getting some good CC results because Langer is physically out there in the middle. It may very well be the case that results have improved because he has toughened attitudes over the course of his tenure here, as opposed to it being the case that he's some kind of Mike Brearley wonder-captain.
At some point, we're going to have to try to find some kind of answer to the question of whether or not we will fold like a cheap suit without Langer.
If we just leave Langer to captain out the season and then do not bring him back next year, then I would guess that we'll end up signing another overseas player as our captain out of sheer fear that we'll otherwise revert to being what we were under Mike Burns. Since most captains are batsmen (or so it seems) that means that we won't then be using that overseas slot to help with the bowling, as you would wish, Grockle.
OR
We won't sign another overseas captain, having guessed that we'll be fine without Langer in the middle and then if we got that guess wrong....
In my view then, if Langer is not coming back next year, we should leave him out of the final few CC games unless we’re in title contention - to try and get at least some kind of indication as to whether we’ll need another former Test star as our captain for next year.
Whether he’s coming back or not, if he doesn’t start scoring runs, then give another batsman a chance later in the season and give Mr Rose and the decision-makers a preview of what life will look like without Langer being physically in the middle.
If he is coming back next year, and does start scoring runs, then obviously he should stay where he is.
I meant his place as a batsman being bullet-proof just because he is the captain, as opposed to his captaincy itself being bullet-proof.
It isn't necessarily the case that we are getting some good CC results because Langer is physically out there in the middle. It may very well be the case that results have improved because he has toughened attitudes over the course of his tenure here, as opposed to it being the case that he's some kind of Mike Brearley wonder-captain.
At some point, we're going to have to try to find some kind of answer to the question of whether or not we will fold like a cheap suit without Langer.
If we just leave Langer to captain out the season and then do not bring him back next year, then I would guess that we'll end up signing another overseas player as our captain out of sheer fear that we'll otherwise revert to being what we were under Mike Burns. Since most captains are batsmen (or so it seems) that means that we won't then be using that overseas slot to help with the bowling, as you would wish, Grockle.
OR
We won't sign another overseas captain, having guessed that we'll be fine without Langer in the middle and then if we got that guess wrong....
In my view then, if Langer is not coming back next year, we should leave him out of the final few CC games unless we’re in title contention - to try and get at least some kind of indication as to whether we’ll need another former Test star as our captain for next year.
Whether he’s coming back or not, if he doesn’t start scoring runs, then give another batsman a chance later in the season and give Mr Rose and the decision-makers a preview of what life will look like without Langer being physically in the middle.
If he is coming back next year, and does start scoring runs, then obviously he should stay where he is.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 15:35
Underlying question here seems to be 'If JL leaves - will we fall apart' ?
To be honest, I really don't know the answer to that, but at the least, we can be confident (can't we ?) that appropriate planning is in place for the post Langer era.
As far as his batting is concerned, the Captaincy issue of course complicates things massively, but JL does appear to be giving himself more latitude than he has allowed one or two others !
Grizzzly
To be honest, I really don't know the answer to that, but at the least, we can be confident (can't we ?) that appropriate planning is in place for the post Langer era.
As far as his batting is concerned, the Captaincy issue of course complicates things massively, but JL does appear to be giving himself more latitude than he has allowed one or two others !
Grizzzly
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 15:39
No one knows the answer and, as LoL alluded to, we don't know what the plans are for any succession, either. Which is not necessarily to say that they don't have a very good plan..
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 19:02
So let's take the chance now? Why "fix" something that isn't broken when you have as much idea if the 'fix' is worth doing or if it will work?
And I know this is interesting and the kind of debate that some posters on here say we can't have but..... face it guys
It ain't gonna happen
And I know this is interesting and the kind of debate that some posters on here say we can't have but..... face it guys
It ain't gonna happen
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 20:48
I thought that Marcus had publicly stated he was keen to take over when Justin does go, have others not heard this?
I'm sure he is current vice captain, and as he is likely to play a full part in all cricket for the next 4/5/6+ years i'd think this was the logical choice?
International experience, guaranteed his place, local lad, etc etc
I'm sure he is current vice captain, and as he is likely to play a full part in all cricket for the next 4/5/6+ years i'd think this was the logical choice?
International experience, guaranteed his place, local lad, etc etc
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 21/07/2009 23:02
There were doubts about his captaincy credentials before all the issues WSM and then the doubts about what it would do to him got added.
But is MT wants it then he has to be the frontrunner irrespective of questions about his ability to do it.
But is MT wants it then he has to be the frontrunner irrespective of questions about his ability to do it.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Congar (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 04:18
"Doubts", I thought Marcus had led his country satisfactorily and doesn't he have more experience of captaincy than Langer had before he came to Somerset.
He is the obvious choice and can be the best captain and batsman in the CC.
If he wants it.
He is the obvious choice and can be the best captain and batsman in the CC.
If he wants it.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 08:17
Hear! Hear!
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: North of the Border (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 08:23
If JL were to leave, the most logical forwrad route would be to promote from within. This would enable the new skipper and coaching staff (which could conceivably include JL and ARC) to retain the application, attitude, team ethic etc. MT would indeed then be front runner.
Appointing a new overseas captain may disrupt the team balance going forward. A new overseas player may not, IF the management find somwone to fit into the club the way that JL (and also Cam) has / have done.
And I am behind Grockle etc on this one - the quickest way to disrupt that team ethic / mentality (whatever it is we have at the moment) would be to drop the one of the main (if not THE main) influence on that, namely JL, purely beacuse of poor(ish) form.
Appointing a new overseas captain may disrupt the team balance going forward. A new overseas player may not, IF the management find somwone to fit into the club the way that JL (and also Cam) has / have done.
And I am behind Grockle etc on this one - the quickest way to disrupt that team ethic / mentality (whatever it is we have at the moment) would be to drop the one of the main (if not THE main) influence on that, namely JL, purely beacuse of poor(ish) form.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 08:33
"And I know this is interesting and the kind of debate that some posters on here say we can't have but..... face it guys
It ain't gonna happen."
Yes, Grockle, I'll concede that.
However, I also strongly suspect that your preference for the overseas slot to be filled by a bowler will not happen either.
For one thing, Brian Rose still believes that the 'most important thing in Div One is to avoid defeats.'
It ain't gonna happen."
Yes, Grockle, I'll concede that.
However, I also strongly suspect that your preference for the overseas slot to be filled by a bowler will not happen either.
For one thing, Brian Rose still believes that the 'most important thing in Div One is to avoid defeats.'
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 08:36
And, by that, I don't necessarily mean we will automatically bring Langer back, come hell or high water (though I fear that will be the case) but that, if Langer does not come back, he will be replaced by another batsman, I think.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 08:42
On the MT front then I think there's always a slight worry anytime you give your best player the leadership. Will they respond like G A Gooch did for England or will they be more I T Botham?
Obviously, as an all-rounder, Botham had more things to think/worry about than Gooch, but still..
There's also the odd more minor issue such as the matter of any overseas tours in pre-season etc... Maybe these tours are totally unnecessary in which case who cares if we don't book any of them? But if they are an important part of preparation then a situation where the captain may not feel able to attend would surely not be ideal?
And, quite frankly, I would NOT want to be an SCCC official putting MT in a position where he had to consider whether or not he wanted to go on such a tour.
Probably we could just do all our prepration here, but there may be an argument that purely indoor preparation (in the event of a wet pre-season is inadequate.)
Obviously, as an all-rounder, Botham had more things to think/worry about than Gooch, but still..
There's also the odd more minor issue such as the matter of any overseas tours in pre-season etc... Maybe these tours are totally unnecessary in which case who cares if we don't book any of them? But if they are an important part of preparation then a situation where the captain may not feel able to attend would surely not be ideal?
And, quite frankly, I would NOT want to be an SCCC official putting MT in a position where he had to consider whether or not he wanted to go on such a tour.
Probably we could just do all our prepration here, but there may be an argument that purely indoor preparation (in the event of a wet pre-season is inadequate.)
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 08:53
Yep unfortunately I aalso think you're right and it worries me greatly for next year.
The questions about MT did come from his one day international captaincy exploits and the fact he was considered and then sidelined (but that could have been related more to his mind set at the time).
He has done a fair job on the occasions he has been asked to. The questions came from a consideration of him as a long term solution.
I'm with the 'if he wants it crowd' but I also worry about the effect it may have and whether he is strong enough to be the man in control among a group he has grown up with.
Then again, other candidates are as rare as rocking horse droppings
The questions about MT did come from his one day international captaincy exploits and the fact he was considered and then sidelined (but that could have been related more to his mind set at the time).
He has done a fair job on the occasions he has been asked to. The questions came from a consideration of him as a long term solution.
I'm with the 'if he wants it crowd' but I also worry about the effect it may have and whether he is strong enough to be the man in control among a group he has grown up with.
Then again, other candidates are as rare as rocking horse droppings
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 09:00
We don't know, of course, whether there might be anybody else in the ranks who would like to push themselves forward for the job?
After the Mike Burns experience one would think that 'who wants it?' has to be a huge consideration. It would be terrible to again have a captain who would rather not be the captain.
After the Mike Burns experience one would think that 'who wants it?' has to be a huge consideration. It would be terrible to again have a captain who would rather not be the captain.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 09:41
Brian has, in the past, joined Langer in moaning about the pitch. I'd be interested to know how he squares such criticism with his take that the most important thing is 'not to lose.'
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Mike BOS (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 10:13
What do you all think about changing the captain and vice-captain and giving Marcus the captaincy and Justin the vice- captaincy for the remainder of the season?
That would ease Marcus into it with Justin support.
That would ease Marcus into it with Justin support.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 10:42
I have wondered if that might actually be the "official," plan but maybe next season, rather than this one?
I remember being at Horsham last season and seeing Langer and Banger dissappear into a caravan which, it turned out, was actually our "tactics suite," complete with video of all their batsmen and bowlers etc. So Banger was certainly heavily involved with that kind of thing, as opposed to just being somebody that might be asked for advice in the field.
I remember being at Horsham last season and seeing Langer and Banger dissappear into a caravan which, it turned out, was actually our "tactics suite," complete with video of all their batsmen and bowlers etc. So Banger was certainly heavily involved with that kind of thing, as opposed to just being somebody that might be asked for advice in the field.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 12:01
Are you sure they weren't watching the racing in there,AG?
Trego for England
Trego for England
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 12:25
A bit early for the races, Jim, I think.
Though they could have been checking the form ahead of the day's races!
Though they could have been checking the form ahead of the day's races!
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 14:50
What about Trigger ?
Seem to recall he Captained an MCC team a while ago on a trip to South America (Argentina ?).
He has the confidence & he might thrive on the additional responsibility.
A gamble yes - but might be worth it, especially re the longer term.
Grizzzly
Seem to recall he Captained an MCC team a while ago on a trip to South America (Argentina ?).
He has the confidence & he might thrive on the additional responsibility.
A gamble yes - but might be worth it, especially re the longer term.
Grizzzly
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 14:52
Could well be right, Grizzly. Might be the making of the man.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 15:29
I agree,Grizzz.
I mentioned it a while back and quite a few seemed to agree.
Trego for England
I mentioned it a while back and quite a few seemed to agree.
Trego for England
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: wsm fan (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 19:27
Was this the Langer bashing thread yesterday, does todays innings have any impact on those views?
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 22/07/2009 21:03
Not mine WSM. Strengthens the reasons fof him staying in charge in my eyes.
It was suggested that MT might take over in the Pro40 perhaps but there would be little point if the plan is to offer Justin another year.
It was suggested that MT might take over in the Pro40 perhaps but there would be little point if the plan is to offer Justin another year.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 23/07/2009 08:37
No, it wasn't, it was the other one, WSM.
My views were not based on just one innings.
Hopefully, this is an encouraging sign that I was wrong. Certainly, it's a good innings in the context of a 3-day game (rapid) as well as a decent score.
At the same time, it would be wrong to pretend that the Worcs attack is not depleted and that Worcs have not been the divisional whipping boys.
A better test for Langer will be the Notts game. If we was only suffering a common-or-garden loss of form, then hopefully he will now be out of that.
My views were not based on just one innings.
Hopefully, this is an encouraging sign that I was wrong. Certainly, it's a good innings in the context of a 3-day game (rapid) as well as a decent score.
At the same time, it would be wrong to pretend that the Worcs attack is not depleted and that Worcs have not been the divisional whipping boys.
A better test for Langer will be the Notts game. If we was only suffering a common-or-garden loss of form, then hopefully he will now be out of that.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Wickham (IP Logged)
Date: 23/07/2009 13:56
I am with those who consider that JL neither should nor will stand down this season. And I agree with LoL that MT should not be made captain. Somerset's greatest single strength is the batting of Marcus: nothing should be done which jeopardises that.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 23/07/2009 14:53
You are very right Wickham and it would be even more important should Langer not return.
I've seen players of the likes of Pete Trego take to captaincy when offered it and I've seen it mess them up. But when I look at the rest of the side the only other name that comes to mind is Zander. James isn't established enough in his own game and no-one else has that stature or consistency of health and form that would guarantee their place in the side for a season.
Hope MT doesn't take it for the wrong reasons but only because he believes he can do it and wants to.
It has always been an issue of great personal respect for Mike Burns that he took the poisoned chalice for the good of the county but I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone.
I've seen players of the likes of Pete Trego take to captaincy when offered it and I've seen it mess them up. But when I look at the rest of the side the only other name that comes to mind is Zander. James isn't established enough in his own game and no-one else has that stature or consistency of health and form that would guarantee their place in the side for a season.
Hope MT doesn't take it for the wrong reasons but only because he believes he can do it and wants to.
It has always been an issue of great personal respect for Mike Burns that he took the poisoned chalice for the good of the county but I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Loyal of Lhasa. (IP Logged)
Date: 23/07/2009 15:00
Trego has been on record making a very engaging remark to the effect that "if I had half a brain I could be quite good at this game"*. I've always believed that cricket captaincy calls for a special kind of intelligence; whether Trego has that - or believes that he has - I am not sure.
* I would welcome a more accurate version from Brother of.
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
* I would welcome a more accurate version from Brother of.
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 23/07/2009 16:06
Suspect and would hope that he was being ironic.
Re: The Pro40 Off and Running - Notts
Posted by: Loyal of Lhasa. (IP Logged)
Date: 23/07/2009 16:12
I'd prefer BO to adjudicate on that, as I've never met PT.
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
LoL
Sixty-one Seasons a Somerset Supporter
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