How much can one man do?
Almost...again Part 1
How much can one man do?
By Grockle
November 8 2011
The 2011 season. Similar to the 2010 season or a move on towards the season we all want to see? Have we shot our proverbial bolt? Has the chance gone to add to our county's history and also add that elusive piece of silver that has never graced the Taunton trophy cabinet? A personal review of the 'almost boys' and their quest for the CC1 "Chalice"
How much can one man do?
November 8 2011
The 2011 season. Similar to the 2010 season or a move on towards the season we all want to see? Have we shot our proverbial bolt? Has the chance gone to add to our county's history and also add that elusive piece of silver that has never graced the Taunton trophy cabinet? A personal review of the 'almost boys' and their quest for the CC1 "Chalice"
Almost T20 Champions...Almost CB40 Champions....Not quite CC1 Champions and Nearly World T20 Champions to boot...why is this not seen as the season to beat all seasons for Somerset County Cricket Club?
The older Grockless will keep telling you that this is better than anything they have seen in their lifetimes (well except for the 'Golden Years' or the triuvirate of Botham, Richards and Garner for some - though we never competed in all formats like this). The bookies had us sweeping the floor with most other counties and the pundits had us as the team to watch in nearly all competitions... so why the disappointment?
In Marcus Trescothick we had the best English batsman of his age - no international commitments (though he would have walked into the England side) meant he was there all season. A skipper who led from the front and had the respect of his team and what a team.
Arul Suppiah had come of age as an opener with a 1000+ run season in 2010. He was a partner and frontline batsman in his own right. Nick Compton had a difficult initiation into this provincial side in 2010 but was starting to get his head around his role towards the end of that season. With the departure of Zander de Bruyn a lot was expected from NC as an anchorman.
James Hildreth had been rewarded for his most consistent season with the captaincy of the England A side in the winter and we hoped to see this version of James in the new season before the inevitable happened and he was pulled into the England setup during the summer.
Craig Kieswetter was now an established part of that self same setup, at least in the short format versions of the game but he would be with us in the early part of the season to get the Somerset Championship 'freight train' moving on down the line. Then his place behind the stumps would be taken by the exciting Jos Buttler, returning from time as a member of the Hong Kong Sixes England side and a possible one day call up option if his early season form suggested what we already knew.
Peter Trego had also been to Hong Kong and had a role in both camps, batting and bowling, especially in the early season. Still to show the allround talent we knew was in him to the international selectors, he was a fundamental link between the bowling and the batting.
The other side of the game had promise but it was unfulfilled. It also held the key to our success or failure because our first choice bowling attack was not available until the beginning of June!! Charl Willoughby after his mysterious absence from the one day final, which was never really explained, was back to lead the new ball attack. Unfortunately his partner for this and Vice Captain, Alfonso Thomas would be part of Pune's bowling unit for April and May along with our spin master Murali Kartik - the missing link and probable key to our success in 2010. To cover this absence and strengthen our attack Brian Rose had been to the bank and spent some money on domestic and international players. From Gloucestershire, who seemed to be leaking players, we had enticed Steve Kirby for his experience and big game guts and Gemaal Hussain a bowler of some potential but untried in part of the game. Alongside them was the 'mystery' Sri Lankan bowler Ajantha Mendis fresh from the World Cup and a proven wicket taker outside of the UK - a great signing in the eyes of most of the website following and an addition looked on enviously by other counties looking to bolster their ranks until the IPL crew arrived for the English domestic competitions.
Ben Phillips had a phenomenal end to the 2010 season and had stayed mostly uninjured during it. However, Rose's flag was nailed to the youth coming through and as such it was totally understandable that he would take a better offer from Nottinghamshire and move on during the winter. This left a gap in the final first team lineup and we expected it to be filled by one of three players from the Academy system, second teamn unit and youth signings. The Academy player was Lewis Gregory, captain of the England U19 side and a batting bowler of promise. His debut against Pakistan in the international at Taunton had whetted the appetite and there was anticipation of another great talent joining the side. Max Waller had been a patient member of the second team for more than one season. His first team appearances had been increasing but not consistent, suffering from a belief in the coaching section of the club that he needed to spin the ball more. During our trip to the West Indies for their T20 competition, he had turned some of the best batsmen in the area inside out with balls he wasn't supposed to be able to bowl and we all hoped that this was his year in conjunction with our International slow men.
Aded to this was the equally exciting signing of Irish spinner George Dockrell a veteran international ne day bowler at the age of 19!! His tight control and seeming ice cool temperament was an asset we hoped to use when is national side were not using his talents.
Did we have cover? We certainly believed so. Some were sad not to see Damien Wright returning for the early season but we'd been beaten to the draw by Worcestershire and we would see him at HQ before3 he returned to Australia and retirement at the end of 2011.
All was set....... Some were worried, some overly so perhaps. There were doubts about Hussain and Kirby's ability to 'step up', doubts about the start of the season as Mendis did not arrive until the start of May - which wasn't helped by Dockrell damaging his ankle in the last part of Ireland's World Cup jaunt. There were doubts about the tail's ability to bat - suggesting doubts about the actual strength of the front end of our batting line-up. There were also doubts about Compton and Trego's ability to fulfill the 'de Bruyn' role in four day and one day games, something vital to our stickability and control over the middle sections of battle in many games in 2010.
Had we got what was needed? Had we got the mixture right? Was it a case of survival until June and could we accumulate enough points in the firswt third to keep us in the hunt for the last 67%?
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StumbleuponAlmost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockles.com (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2011 09:34
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:11:26:20:35:22 by Grockle.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:11:26:20:35:22 by Grockle.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2011 17:07
Realistically, whatever its place in the overall scheme of things, 2011 was a less good season than in 2010 for the simple reason that we got closer to winning in 2010 than 2011.
We were NOT close in the CC in 2011 - in truth not good enough, overall in the CC.
And even in T20, we very close and unlucky against Hants in 2010 and just not good enough (and not as close) on the day versus Leics in 2011. Additionally, Somerset were not as good, overall, in the group stages in 2011 as in 2010. CLT20 - yes, it went well, but then there was no corresponding SCCC entry in 2010.
Pro 40 Final, I suppose you could argue was about the same in each of the two years.
Still, obviously, a strong season overall in one-day cricket and not an awful one in CC cricket. But I think the above would explain why it wasn't the "season to beat all seasons," if it wasn't as good as the preceding one!
We were NOT close in the CC in 2011 - in truth not good enough, overall in the CC.
And even in T20, we very close and unlucky against Hants in 2010 and just not good enough (and not as close) on the day versus Leics in 2011. Additionally, Somerset were not as good, overall, in the group stages in 2011 as in 2010. CLT20 - yes, it went well, but then there was no corresponding SCCC entry in 2010.
Pro 40 Final, I suppose you could argue was about the same in each of the two years.
Still, obviously, a strong season overall in one-day cricket and not an awful one in CC cricket. But I think the above would explain why it wasn't the "season to beat all seasons," if it wasn't as good as the preceding one!
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: SheptonPaul (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2011 19:21
Err, yeah, what he said...
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Naxxar (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2011 20:17
Talked the talk but sadly couldn't walk the walk when it mattered. Consistent season but disappointing in terms of silverware. Fell away badly without Marcus. Younger players all showed promise but understandable lack of consistency. 3 of our 4 overseas signings disappointed. Kirby proved a very good signing. Thomas a huge loss to the IPL. Improved season for Compton, though he did score 25% of his runs in one match. Criag fantastic at the start of the season, then lost to England. Hildy and Jos inconsistent in CC but both played an innings each that will live in the memory throughout winter.
My End of Season Accolades...
Player of the Season....Marcus followed by Kirby with special mentions to Thomas for his half season, Compo for his big improvement on 2010 and RDVM for the impact he made
Best Young Player...Lewis up to June, Craig M or Barrow Aug-Sept
Biggest Disappointment...Mendis. Hildy, Arul and Kartik not quite having the prolific seasons we were hoping for...GH for his inconsistency
Best wins...Worcs away in the CC, Hants away in the CC to get our season up and running, Durham in the CB40 semi final with such a young side..Durham home in the CC..once again we forced them to follow on and this time we actually beat them! Sussex CC..that great stand that rescued us
Worst defeats...Warks home..urghhh. Warks away. T20 final. CB40 final. (reoccuring theme here!)
Best Innings...Buttler v Sussex..CC, Taunton.
(And Compo's ton at the Unicorns..can you imagine if we had lost there? Could have turned our whole CB40 campaign.)
Best over...Alf's super over in the T20 semi.
Biggest Surprise...Compo's marathon at Durham. Rate the guy but come on, was I the only one surprised his first CC century for us turned out to be so big?!
My End of Season Accolades...
Player of the Season....Marcus followed by Kirby with special mentions to Thomas for his half season, Compo for his big improvement on 2010 and RDVM for the impact he made
Best Young Player...Lewis up to June, Craig M or Barrow Aug-Sept
Biggest Disappointment...Mendis. Hildy, Arul and Kartik not quite having the prolific seasons we were hoping for...GH for his inconsistency
Best wins...Worcs away in the CC, Hants away in the CC to get our season up and running, Durham in the CB40 semi final with such a young side..Durham home in the CC..once again we forced them to follow on and this time we actually beat them! Sussex CC..that great stand that rescued us
Worst defeats...Warks home..urghhh. Warks away. T20 final. CB40 final. (reoccuring theme here!)
Best Innings...Buttler v Sussex..CC, Taunton.
(And Compo's ton at the Unicorns..can you imagine if we had lost there? Could have turned our whole CB40 campaign.)
Best over...Alf's super over in the T20 semi.
Biggest Surprise...Compo's marathon at Durham. Rate the guy but come on, was I the only one surprised his first CC century for us turned out to be so big?!
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: NW5Somerset (IP Logged)
Date: 09/11/2011 20:39
Massive expectation on us to win every thing this year according to the bookies and 'those in the know'
I would of been happy with one pot to be honest - I knew we had the talent but I wasn't convinced we quite had the mental fortitude.
Biggest success : Kirby
Biggest disappointment : Hildreth
I would of been happy with one pot to be honest - I knew we had the talent but I wasn't convinced we quite had the mental fortitude.
Biggest success : Kirby
Biggest disappointment : Hildreth
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Reverse Swing (IP Logged)
Date: 09/11/2011 23:47
Surely Arul's world record efforts deserve a mention? Sad that in a year when he was finally thrown the ball, his batting went backwards.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Bobstan (IP Logged)
Date: 10/11/2011 09:02
I think, RS, that Part 1 looks at what many of us were feeling at the beginning of Season 2011, rather than being a review of the season.
I'm sure the world record will be duly acknowleged in a later instalment.
I'm sure the world record will be duly acknowleged in a later instalment.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 10/11/2011 09:06
It is in fact a scene setter only at the moment.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Reverse Swing (IP Logged)
Date: 10/11/2011 09:49
No worries, looking forward to the rest. I was actually referring to Naxaar's season awards.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Naxxar (IP Logged)
Date: 10/11/2011 09:52
Quote:Reverse Swing
No worries, looking forward to the rest. I was actually referring to Naxaar's season awards.
And you're right! Big oversight on my part not to include his T20 world record! Sorry!
I've always rated Arul as a bowler and was mystified why he was not given more of a chance with the ball last season. For some reason, Marcus doesn't seem to rate him much.
Even without Kartik for next season, people are talking up Max and George as our spinning options..rightly so as they're specialists. But for my money, Arul is just as decent
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 10/11/2011 11:05
Well, I can't speak for the rest of it, but the bit in bold to which I responded at the top very obviously relates to how the 2011 season should or should not be perceived in the rear-view mirror.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Naxxar (IP Logged)
Date: 10/11/2011 11:11
Don't worry AG, you're not in trouble!
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 10:20
As a team we lack balls, the killer instinct.
It's tough at the top, we need hard nosed ruthlessness, we need backsides kicked, we need the Ponting mindset back.
Otherwise, we're not going to win a thing.
Trego's too good for England
It's tough at the top, we need hard nosed ruthlessness, we need backsides kicked, we need the Ponting mindset back.
Otherwise, we're not going to win a thing.
Trego's too good for England
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 10:47
Would you welcome the man himself back then, BJ?
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 11:04
In a managerial role?
Most certainly....I'd pay for his air fare.
Trego's too good for England
Most certainly....I'd pay for his air fare.
Trego's too good for England
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 11:06
I meant a playing one... supposedly we may be targeting an overseas batsman for the first part of the season and his name is supposed to be in the frame.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Naxxar (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 11:09
History shows us we tend to win things when we sign an experienced overseas player. Cox, Smith, Langer!
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 11:12
Don't remember him having a rep as a hard man BJ. He tended to work on doing the job to a very high level when he was here before.
Not for me either as a player I'm afraid.
We need the batsman we have to perform not a replacement because they don't. If you think the problem is discipline imposed from management then we should be looking for a change at the top, Rose, Hurry or Trescothick? Which isn't doing what they should?
Not for me either as a player I'm afraid.
We need the batsman we have to perform not a replacement because they don't. If you think the problem is discipline imposed from management then we should be looking for a change at the top, Rose, Hurry or Trescothick? Which isn't doing what they should?
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 11:14
I stand to be corrected but I do wonder if BJ meant to say Langer, rather than Ponting? That would explain why he answered my question about 'brining the man himself,' back in a managerial context.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 11:24
But that still infers that one of the incumbents is lacking in some way.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 11:46
Yes, it's not really an implication, though. More of a clear statement.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 12:04
Can it be clear if it does not identify the person/persons responsible for the deficiency?
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 12:17
Who said he was a hard man, Grockle, and yes, I do mean Langer...as you know.
It was the mental strength he brought, to succeed at the highest level you need it, it'd be pretty obvious to even the most one eyed supporter that we're falling short.
I wouldn't want him back as a player, but in a managerial role he'd be a huge asset.
I said it at the start of last season, Trescothick, great bloke and world class player that he is seems to lack the killer instinct as a captain.
That's my opinion of course, and I tell you what, I think results back me up.
Trego's too good for England
It was the mental strength he brought, to succeed at the highest level you need it, it'd be pretty obvious to even the most one eyed supporter that we're falling short.
I wouldn't want him back as a player, but in a managerial role he'd be a huge asset.
I said it at the start of last season, Trescothick, great bloke and world class player that he is seems to lack the killer instinct as a captain.
That's my opinion of course, and I tell you what, I think results back me up.
Trego's too good for England
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 12:22
You did indeed say that, BJ, before the season.
Of course, one of Marcus's bigger problems as captain last season was the loss of, by far, his best player, to an ankle injury..
Of course, one of Marcus's bigger problems as captain last season was the loss of, by far, his best player, to an ankle injury..
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 12:26
Not sure they do BJ but as you say it is your opinion.
We didn't seem to do all that well when the guy wasn't playing and his role was never expected to be the 'Langer' replacement as we also were all very aware from the very start.
Justin did a very vital thing in his first season but he nearly destroyed that progress before he left and there was a sigh of relief in more than one place when he did the decent thing.
As a hard man on the field and a player of some considerable talent he was exceptional. As a candidate for a role in management I'm afraid his talents were not as univerally appreciated.
We didn't seem to do all that well when the guy wasn't playing and his role was never expected to be the 'Langer' replacement as we also were all very aware from the very start.
Justin did a very vital thing in his first season but he nearly destroyed that progress before he left and there was a sigh of relief in more than one place when he did the decent thing.
As a hard man on the field and a player of some considerable talent he was exceptional. As a candidate for a role in management I'm afraid his talents were not as univerally appreciated.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Naxxar (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 13:00
In my opinion JL proved my theory that Somerset tend to hold on to overseas players a year or so too long. Coxy admitted this. Mushtaq was on a downward slope in terms of performances for us. JL's last year wasn't a huge success. We would have given MK another year too, had he accepted at the start of negotiations.
Far better a fresh RDVM next season..alot of it will be new to him..he won't be jaded
Far better a fresh RDVM next season..alot of it will be new to him..he won't be jaded
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 13:46
Charl? Have to say I agree with you.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 15:57
Agree with BJ re the lack of killer instinct & at least part of that has to be down to Marcus.
As for JL, I also tend to the view he stayed for a season too many.
Not sure that RP still has what we need/are looking for, but GS would certainly add some steel.
If we are to win pots instead of merely getting close, we have to adopt a more ruthless attitude & 'turn up' a good deal more often (please take note James !). Hopefully RvdM will help us here.
As has been discussed elsewhere, we certainly also need a good addition to our bowling attack.
Grizzzly
As for JL, I also tend to the view he stayed for a season too many.
Not sure that RP still has what we need/are looking for, but GS would certainly add some steel.
If we are to win pots instead of merely getting close, we have to adopt a more ruthless attitude & 'turn up' a good deal more often (please take note James !). Hopefully RvdM will help us here.
As has been discussed elsewhere, we certainly also need a good addition to our bowling attack.
Grizzzly
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Sloop John B (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 16:18
Couldn't disagree with you on any of that Grizzly.
Biff made a useful ton today for the SA team in a fine win over Oz.
I do think RDVM will make a good contribution in the one day stuff and hopefully his derring-do will stand us in good stead in the 4 day.
Biff made a useful ton today for the SA team in a fine win over Oz.
I do think RDVM will make a good contribution in the one day stuff and hopefully his derring-do will stand us in good stead in the 4 day.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 17:16
I'm sorry guys but we're talking about a bunch of professional players who are nearly all out of their teens.
You are requiring the leader to take them by the hand and ask them to win something because they don't have the 'killer instinct'? Should he bring some toilet paper as well in case they forget other fundamentals.
It's THE TEAM's job to support gee up and drive TOGETHER to get what they want. It's not one man's fault. IT's ELEVEN MEN's FAULT!!
It was obvious that Marcus was not that sort of captain in 2010. I don't recall these criticisms appearing when he was appointed. There was Alfonso, we brought in Steve Kirby, the buck stopped at Brian Rose. Motivation is a TEAM EVENT and MT contributed on the field and with the bat.
To coin a sort of old phrase
You can tell a player to grow a pair...it doesn't mean he will and you can't grow them for him.
If it isn't happening then it is a TEAM in the widest sense who work to sort it so it is EVERYONE's responsibility not just the tall bloke who hits you over 1500 runs a season.
You are requiring the leader to take them by the hand and ask them to win something because they don't have the 'killer instinct'? Should he bring some toilet paper as well in case they forget other fundamentals.
It's THE TEAM's job to support gee up and drive TOGETHER to get what they want. It's not one man's fault. IT's ELEVEN MEN's FAULT!!
It was obvious that Marcus was not that sort of captain in 2010. I don't recall these criticisms appearing when he was appointed. There was Alfonso, we brought in Steve Kirby, the buck stopped at Brian Rose. Motivation is a TEAM EVENT and MT contributed on the field and with the bat.
To coin a sort of old phrase
You can tell a player to grow a pair...it doesn't mean he will and you can't grow them for him.
If it isn't happening then it is a TEAM in the widest sense who work to sort it so it is EVERYONE's responsibility not just the tall bloke who hits you over 1500 runs a season.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Naxxar (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 17:26
Exactly. Nobody should need motivating to play first class cricket for Somerset. Some people work down mines or in sweaty factories. A cricket pitch out in the sunshine should be a joy, and I'm sure is most of the time for our team.
I've never expected a captain to motivate his players towards victory and have never criticised one if he does not appear to. He does not need to be waving his hands in the air every 2 minutes to be effective. Captaincy is about tactics and getting the best out of situations, reading the game ahead of the opposition, keeping everybody involved and happy.
Anyway, if you're a batter, there can surely be no more motivating sight than Marcus striding out to bat! It would inspire me if I were at number 3.
I remember Michael Vaughan, in his autobiography, saying that he felt Smith was a showy sort of captain who always felt he had to make gestures or over react to things to make it look like he was in charge.
Personally, I loved having Smith here in 05. There is a subtle difference between motivating and inspiring..and teaching.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:11:11:17:29:28 by Naxxar.
I've never expected a captain to motivate his players towards victory and have never criticised one if he does not appear to. He does not need to be waving his hands in the air every 2 minutes to be effective. Captaincy is about tactics and getting the best out of situations, reading the game ahead of the opposition, keeping everybody involved and happy.
Anyway, if you're a batter, there can surely be no more motivating sight than Marcus striding out to bat! It would inspire me if I were at number 3.
I remember Michael Vaughan, in his autobiography, saying that he felt Smith was a showy sort of captain who always felt he had to make gestures or over react to things to make it look like he was in charge.
Personally, I loved having Smith here in 05. There is a subtle difference between motivating and inspiring..and teaching.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:11:11:17:29:28 by Naxxar.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 18:33
A good captain can make a huge difference, most who'll have played sport at a very high level will tell you that, they can make the difference between being runners up or winners.
We're great at being runners up.
The results don't back me up, Grockle?
How many must win matches....finals, have we won over the past few seasons?
A straight answer would be appreciated.
Trego's too good for England
We're great at being runners up.
The results don't back me up, Grockle?
How many must win matches....finals, have we won over the past few seasons?
A straight answer would be appreciated.
Trego's too good for England
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 19:18
A captain is not the TEAM BJ. The best captain in the world cannot make a team win if the drive is not there. Justin didn't win us anything either. Marcus got us closer...does that make him a better captain or a worse one?
Someone has to get you to those finals so you can fail to win them...who managed that? Alfonso, the VC? The driving force of James? Nick Compton? Charl Willoughby? Arul? Andy Hurry on the pitch? Brian's pitches?
Marcus has to take his share of the questions as to why the side did not get trophies BUT IT IS NOT HIS FAULT any more than it is just Rose's or Jos Buttler's, Craig Kieswetter's Pete Trego's or Murali in 2011, Keiron Pollard.
"The captain shoulders the burden" is a copout. He'll take the blame because it his job to do that. It does not make it his fault.
Somerset have been like this under FOUR captains that I know of. Let's blame them all shall we? Cliches won't make it any more true I'm afraid.
Someone has to get you to those finals so you can fail to win them...who managed that? Alfonso, the VC? The driving force of James? Nick Compton? Charl Willoughby? Arul? Andy Hurry on the pitch? Brian's pitches?
Marcus has to take his share of the questions as to why the side did not get trophies BUT IT IS NOT HIS FAULT any more than it is just Rose's or Jos Buttler's, Craig Kieswetter's Pete Trego's or Murali in 2011, Keiron Pollard.
"The captain shoulders the burden" is a copout. He'll take the blame because it his job to do that. It does not make it his fault.
Somerset have been like this under FOUR captains that I know of. Let's blame them all shall we? Cliches won't make it any more true I'm afraid.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 20:39
Ok, if the captaincy is not important in your eyes then why not give it to someone else, maybe one of the youngsters, raise their profile.
Failing that throw all the names in a hat, let the winner take on the role, maybe they can just be in charge of drinking games afterwards, that sort of thing.
Do you seriously think Langer's influence had little to do with our success....you remember, bottom of the pile, a laughing stock?
Trescothick is a brilliant batsman, that doesn't give him an automatic right to be a good captain.
We have the talent in this team to win competitions.....as far as I see it, we're not.
The buck has to stop somewhere, we need a change at the top..... whilst praying lasting damage hasn't been done by the numerous defeats when it really matters.
Trego's too good for England
Failing that throw all the names in a hat, let the winner take on the role, maybe they can just be in charge of drinking games afterwards, that sort of thing.
Do you seriously think Langer's influence had little to do with our success....you remember, bottom of the pile, a laughing stock?
Trescothick is a brilliant batsman, that doesn't give him an automatic right to be a good captain.
We have the talent in this team to win competitions.....as far as I see it, we're not.
The buck has to stop somewhere, we need a change at the top..... whilst praying lasting damage hasn't been done by the numerous defeats when it really matters.
Trego's too good for England
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 20:44
I didn't say it was "one mans fault" Grockle.
I said the lack of killer instinct was partly down to him, as of course it is with the team overall.
Nonetheless, SCCC remain a team of the utmost talent who suffer (in relative terms - others would be pleased to have the problem !), from being unable to convert winning opportunities,and the Captain must accept that is part of his responsibility.
I'm not getting at Marcus, his batting achievements speak for themselves, but does anyone really think we would have come second five times, and not won at least one competition in 2010/2011 if we had had the good fortune to have GS as Captain across that period ?
As for 'taking them by the hand', I think 'by the throat' (a la Brian Close) might be a better option !
Grizzzly
I said the lack of killer instinct was partly down to him, as of course it is with the team overall.
Nonetheless, SCCC remain a team of the utmost talent who suffer (in relative terms - others would be pleased to have the problem !), from being unable to convert winning opportunities,and the Captain must accept that is part of his responsibility.
I'm not getting at Marcus, his batting achievements speak for themselves, but does anyone really think we would have come second five times, and not won at least one competition in 2010/2011 if we had had the good fortune to have GS as Captain across that period ?
As for 'taking them by the hand', I think 'by the throat' (a la Brian Close) might be a better option !
Grizzzly
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: SheptonPaul (IP Logged)
Date: 11/11/2011 20:58
We've won a fair few must-win matches in the last few years - quarter-finals, semi-finals and some others to get us into knockout stages.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 12/11/2011 09:16
I totally agree Shep, and personally I wouldn't swap what we have for the world.
I've simply had a pantsful of all the moaning....if we win something we may get some peace and quiet.
Though I doubt it.
Seriously though, I do think a change in captaincy would help, we need to keep it fresh, new ideas, keep people on their toes.
Let Marcus concentrate on his batting, cos let's be honest, we ll know we've got the perfect skipper waiting in the wings.....I give you, Sir Peter Trego.
Trego's too good for England
I've simply had a pantsful of all the moaning....if we win something we may get some peace and quiet.
Though I doubt it.
Seriously though, I do think a change in captaincy would help, we need to keep it fresh, new ideas, keep people on their toes.
Let Marcus concentrate on his batting, cos let's be honest, we ll know we've got the perfect skipper waiting in the wings.....I give you, Sir Peter Trego.
Trego's too good for England
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: SheptonPaul (IP Logged)
Date: 12/11/2011 09:43
Agree, James, though I'll be happy if Banger remains in charge.
Have a great day...
Have a great day...
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 12/11/2011 11:14
I agree with some of your sentiments BJ but i challenge you to show me where I said the captaincy wasn't important.
It's just that there is more than one type of captain and suddenly demanding that MT should be something he never professed to be as if it has been missing all along and that some hard man taking over will solve all the problems is just too simplistic.
The issue of motivation and consistency within Somerset has been an issue since Cox and Shine, through Bowler, Burns, Smith, Blackwell, Langer and Trescothick
It has its roots in more than who changes the placings on the field or yells at players. It needs more than one person to be replaced by another. I don't know whether we'd have come second in 5 Finals with GS - we might not haved made 5 finals with Smiffy - he gets up the nose of as many players as he helps I have heard and he may have walked away. But it doesn't mean we have come second because Marcus was in his place either.
It's far more complicated than if the skipper is called Smith or not.
It's just that there is more than one type of captain and suddenly demanding that MT should be something he never professed to be as if it has been missing all along and that some hard man taking over will solve all the problems is just too simplistic.
The issue of motivation and consistency within Somerset has been an issue since Cox and Shine, through Bowler, Burns, Smith, Blackwell, Langer and Trescothick
It has its roots in more than who changes the placings on the field or yells at players. It needs more than one person to be replaced by another. I don't know whether we'd have come second in 5 Finals with GS - we might not haved made 5 finals with Smiffy - he gets up the nose of as many players as he helps I have heard and he may have walked away. But it doesn't mean we have come second because Marcus was in his place either.
It's far more complicated than if the skipper is called Smith or not.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Bobstan (IP Logged)
Date: 12/11/2011 12:11
Michael John Knight Smith? Plenty of experience.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 12/11/2011 12:13
All messing around aside, I'm simply of the belief that sometimes a change at the top can do the trick, an injection of new ideas, an attempt to exorcise the demons.
It also helps pass the long winter nights, though in fairness it's like mid summer here today.
Trego's too good for England
It also helps pass the long winter nights, though in fairness it's like mid summer here today.
Trego's too good for England
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 12/11/2011 13:21
It's a change in the middle that we ought to be looking for.
A change is as good as a rest then aye? Babies and bathwater comes to mind in my cliche riddled mind when I read some stuff here.
How wrong are things when we've been at least one of the top two sides in most of the first division competitions in English domestic cricket over the last few years. And never more than below top four? One is good but contending regularly ain't too shabby.
No idea what the solution is but is it massive policy change and personnel re-shuffles?
Complacent? No but more patient than some of you I would contend.
A change is as good as a rest then aye? Babies and bathwater comes to mind in my cliche riddled mind when I read some stuff here.
How wrong are things when we've been at least one of the top two sides in most of the first division competitions in English domestic cricket over the last few years. And never more than below top four? One is good but contending regularly ain't too shabby.
No idea what the solution is but is it massive policy change and personnel re-shuffles?
Complacent? No but more patient than some of you I would contend.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Naxxar (IP Logged)
Date: 12/11/2011 14:37
You just keep doing what you believe to be right and, if you are right, you will be rewarded
And if you were wrong, you will have wasted what's perceived to be a golden generation for the club
Time will tell
And if you were wrong, you will have wasted what's perceived to be a golden generation for the club
Time will tell
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: old boy! (IP Logged)
Date: 12/11/2011 15:39
Overall I really don't know why there is so much doom and gloom.
OK we haven't picked first prizes, but - blimey - we've been mighty close. Is that bad playing or planning or just plain bad luck? I favour the latter - there is not one team's performance of the other 17 counties who, IMO have a better record, and have provided more entertainment than Somerset over the last 2/3 years. There are some things I think could have been done better, but tell me an activity in life which couldn't have that proviso??
And whatever is said to the contrary, that has been made possible by us having one of the best batsmen to have graced the county grounds in the last half century.
Have faith - our time will come - as they say:
ONWARDS and UPWARDS
OK we haven't picked first prizes, but - blimey - we've been mighty close. Is that bad playing or planning or just plain bad luck? I favour the latter - there is not one team's performance of the other 17 counties who, IMO have a better record, and have provided more entertainment than Somerset over the last 2/3 years. There are some things I think could have been done better, but tell me an activity in life which couldn't have that proviso??
And whatever is said to the contrary, that has been made possible by us having one of the best batsmen to have graced the county grounds in the last half century.
Have faith - our time will come - as they say:
ONWARDS and UPWARDS
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 13/11/2011 09:28
Nothing to do with babies and bathwater, it's to do with making sure we've got the right men in the right jobs.
For me, and quite a few others it would seem, we need a change of captaincy, or maybe not, maybe carrying on regardless is the way ahead.......being runners up in everything is no mean feat after all.
Trego's too good for England
For me, and quite a few others it would seem, we need a change of captaincy, or maybe not, maybe carrying on regardless is the way ahead.......being runners up in everything is no mean feat after all.
Trego's too good for England
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: old boy! (IP Logged)
Date: 13/11/2011 10:29
I know that Manager of MU and Captain of Somerset are clearly different but I make the analogy anyway - Fergie won NOTHING for FIVE years but they stuck with him! MT hasn't won anything YET so lets stick with him!!
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 13/11/2011 10:35
You say it yourself, ob; the two things are not the same, therefore no comparison can, or should be made.
Trego's too good for England
Trego's too good for England
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 13/11/2011 16:30
Quote:Big Jim
Nothing to do with babies and bathwater, it's to do with making sure we've got the right men in the right jobs.
For me, and quite a few others it would seem, we need a change of captaincy, or maybe not, maybe carrying on regardless is the way ahead.......being runners up in everything is no mean feat after all.
I thought you weren't laying the blame at the feet of Marcus BJ...seems that way according to this post.
Changing the captaincy is the only option is it? We do that and we'll win everything? Are you really that niaive?
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 13/11/2011 17:43
Your closing words towards BJ are un-called for Grockle.
I don't see any comments that he suggested it is the only option, nor that we would win everything as a result of any change.
He was expressing an opinion and debating a matter that is an option, and therefore a valid one for discussion.
Grizzzly
I don't see any comments that he suggested it is the only option, nor that we would win everything as a result of any change.
He was expressing an opinion and debating a matter that is an option, and therefore a valid one for discussion.
Grizzzly
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: old boy! (IP Logged)
Date: 13/11/2011 19:26
On the assumption that those adovating a change at the top, either captaincy or coaching, because of SOMERSET'S FAILURE??? over the last 2/3 years, believe that we are not the best coached or captained side in the country, which counties do they believe have achieved more than us? For every name that is produced I am sure there will 'supporters???' of those teams not being satisfied.
IMO we should stick with our present regime, and hope for a change of fortune next season, because IMO we ARE the best, certainly on overall results!
IMO we should stick with our present regime, and hope for a change of fortune next season, because IMO we ARE the best, certainly on overall results!
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 13/11/2011 19:31
No argument from me about the validity Grizzly.
My opinion is that the view that changing the captain is going to solve the problem (if there actually is a problem to solve) is niaive (I also think I've debated the option as well)
I simply asked a question of BJ. You seem to view that as some kind of unforgiveable insult. That is a matter of opinion and thank you for expressing it.
I don't agree with that assessment but that's the nature of opinions isn't it?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:11:13:19:34:36 by Grockle.
My opinion is that the view that changing the captain is going to solve the problem (if there actually is a problem to solve) is niaive (I also think I've debated the option as well)
I simply asked a question of BJ. You seem to view that as some kind of unforgiveable insult. That is a matter of opinion and thank you for expressing it.
I don't agree with that assessment but that's the nature of opinions isn't it?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:11:13:19:34:36 by Grockle.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 13/11/2011 20:24
Er.. Jim is simply saying that he fears that we may not win anything under the present regime. That's not the same as saying we'll automatically win something under different leadership.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Naxxar (IP Logged)
Date: 13/11/2011 20:27
Its academic because hardly anybody else wants the captaincy anyway. Hildy certainly doesn't or Alf.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Scrumper (IP Logged)
Date: 13/11/2011 21:38
I've been questioning my own winning mentality. Recently I lost my 4th league pool final, missing a black (that I would normally pot) in the deciding frame. When I got to the finishing line something in me did not function, it was somewhere I've never been before, I was qutted.
I know a team sport is different, but I do wonder if Somerset need that little sprinkling of pixie dust to get them over the finishing line.
The best players aren't always the best captains.
I know a team sport is different, but I do wonder if Somerset need that little sprinkling of pixie dust to get them over the finishing line.
The best players aren't always the best captains.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2011 01:09
Debate, it's a great thing, some are better at it than others.
It would appear.
Trego's too good for England
It would appear.
Trego's too good for England
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2011 09:45
Quote:Naxxar
Its academic because hardly anybody else wants the captaincy anyway. Hildy certainly doesn't or Alf.
It's also academic because I don't think - though some may correct me - that anybody is seriously advocating that Marcus be stripped of the captaincy? To my mind, that would be madness because then he might leave the club and we saw how we bat without him in the CC at the end of last season (cover the children's eyes.)
I would guess that those - such as yourself, Naxxar, and Big Jim simply have part of them hoping that Marcus would like to give up the captaincy of his own volition?
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Big Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2011 10:02
Spot on, AG.
As they say in certain circles, it's not exactly rocket science....is it?
Trego's too good for England
As they say in certain circles, it's not exactly rocket science....is it?
Trego's too good for England
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Naxxar (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2011 12:17
Quote:AGodQuote:Naxxar
Its academic because hardly anybody else wants the captaincy anyway. Hildy certainly doesn't or Alf.
It's also academic because I don't think - though some may correct me - that anybody is seriously advocating that Marcus be stripped of the captaincy? To my mind, that would be madness because then he might leave the club and we saw how we bat without him in the CC at the end of last season (cover the children's eyes.)
I would guess that those - such as yourself, Naxxar, and Big Jim simply have part of them hoping that Marcus would like to give up the captaincy of his own volition?
You're right, nobody is. Marcus will be captain next season. Hardly a disaster.
All I posted in the first place, that seems to have triggered this debate, is a belief that, if the club are seriously reviewing last season and why we couldn't get over the winning line, the captaincy has to be one of the things being looked at, along with a host of other factors such as signings, team selections, coaching, pre-season preparation etc.
The club tell me they believe Marcus to be the best captain they have and who am I to quibble.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2011 12:48
I am, however, intrigued, Naxxar, by your line about "nobody else wanting the captaincy."
If there's anything in that beyond loyalty to the current captain and set-up, then I'm not convinced that it's a great thing if we really do have nobody else that would want to take the captain's job on...
If there's anything in that beyond loyalty to the current captain and set-up, then I'm not convinced that it's a great thing if we really do have nobody else that would want to take the captain's job on...
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2011 17:10
Tend to agree with AG's comments.
If SCCC & Marcus feel he is the best man to Captain us in 2012, then I certainly won't argue with them !
Nontheless, a bit surprised to read Naxxar's comments re no-one else wanting the job. That sounds rather unambitious & more like the Mike Burns era than now !
Surely Trigger would be keen if a vacancy ever arose at some future time ?
Grizzzly
If SCCC & Marcus feel he is the best man to Captain us in 2012, then I certainly won't argue with them !
Nontheless, a bit surprised to read Naxxar's comments re no-one else wanting the job. That sounds rather unambitious & more like the Mike Burns era than now !
Surely Trigger would be keen if a vacancy ever arose at some future time ?
Grizzzly
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Naxxar (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2011 17:14
Quote:Grizzzly
Tend to agree with AG's comments.
If SCCC & Marcus feel he is the best man to Captain us in 2012, then I certainly won't argue with them !
Nontheless, a bit surprised to read Naxxar's comments re no-one else wanting the job. That sounds rather unambitious & more like the Mike Burns era than now !
Surely Trigger would be keen if a vacancy ever arose at some future time ?
Grizzzly
Don't take my comments too literally! I'm neither JH nor AT but I'd heard neither were desperate to take over the captaincy. Doesn't mean they, or anybody else, wouldn't if asked. AG always looks for the most pessimistic slant on things! Personally I see it as a sign that the team are happy and united under MT, which is a good thing no?
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Naxxar (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2011 17:18
(in my original post I did say HARDLY ANYBODY which seems to have been misinterpreted as NOBODY!)
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Ronniesabre (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2011 17:19
Correct!! Any word on how e are getting on with a bowler search particularly now that Willo has signed for Essex.
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: old boy! (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2011 17:35
Front liners KIRBY, DIBBLE, TREGO and HUSSAIN plus the other youngsters seem OK to me. Have faith - DON'T PANIC CAPTAIN MAINWARING!
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Naxxar (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2011 17:48
Maybe that's why they're panicking!
Re: Almost...again Part 1
Posted by: Grizzzly (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2011 17:50
Thanks for the clarification Naxxar !
Grizzzly
Grizzzly
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