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Head to Head aka H2H
Discussion started by Birbal (IP Logged), 06 November, 2008 18:05
Gaurang
Birbal
06 November, 2008 18:05
I am strating a new thread and making it a sticky. Hopefully this should be fun for all.

The purpose is to compare two similar cricketers and decide who wins the head to head...

The person who comments on the poster's head to head and gives his or her verdict then gets to pick the next pair.

Here is an example...

Mark Waugh vs. VVS Laxman

I say VVS Laxman wins this comparison, though it is close...The reason he wins is that he has more BIG match winning innings against top class opposition that Mark. However if we count Tests AND ODIs...then maybe Mark gets the nod...

After my verdict I can then pick another pair...

Andy Roberts v. Dennis Lillee...

I'll let the next poster determine the H2H Winner



_____

ICL Ko Support Karo Yaro...

BCCI Ko Joote Chappal Maro....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2008 18:08 by Birbal.

MESSAGES->author
ananthd
06 November, 2008 18:35
Thanks Birbal, sounds like a fun idea....

Here's my verdict: Andy Roberts!

At his best Roberts was the most fearsome fast bowler in the world, that couldn't be said of Lillee(although he was pretty good)...

Roberts was the best bowler he'd faced according to Sunny Gavaskar and that's a big thing for me...

Besides, Lillee is a bit of a bully at HOME.

The guy 65 of 70 Tests Oceania & England; that's ridiculous; he never toured India had an average of over a 100 in the one Pakistan tour and barely made a dent in the one Test he played against the then Test minnow Sri Lanka in SL....

Although Roberts played only 47 Tests, I think his better showing away, endorsement by Sunny(the best opener of their time) and the fear he induced in his younger days, tilt my vote towards Roberts....

Okay, my head - head will be: Martin Crowe vs Dean Jones; consider both their Test & ODI records....

crabbage
crabbage
07 November, 2008 03:26
Have to think about lillie and roberts 2 high class opponents.
On dean jones 1 of the best exponents of the one day game batted at 3,better than viv in one dayers.Batsmen today don't compete with these 2 in the pyjama game even sachin.Crowe better testwise but jones was probably as good as crowe in test cricket.The real reason jones got dropped and drooped from every side he played for,he didn't get on with the other players.
Mark waugh superior record outside laxmans' appearances against the aussies.Only team waugh failed against was srilanka in srilanka.
Lillie well its too hard for me to judge didn't see enough of roberts.Lillie tho 1 of the best thinking bowlers i have seen.Don't think he ever played in india or pakistam.

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
07 November, 2008 05:17
Roberts v Lille is not a good pair....not too many have seen much of them.

crabbage
crabbage
07 November, 2008 06:40
Roberts was gone by the early 80's mainly remember him from world series cricket and the 79/80 series.
He was by far his best by 1975.
Lost his pace in the 80's and got dropped.

Gaurang
Birbal
07 November, 2008 15:41
Quote:
Roberts v Lille is not a good pair....not too many have seen much of them.

If you watch Zee TV you will see LOTS and LOTS of them both...(Sm7)



_____

ICL Ko Support Karo Yaro...

BCCI Ko Joote Chappal Maro....

Gaurang
Birbal
07 November, 2008 20:55
since neither crabbage or Anu_d seemed to want to name another pair...

I will go ahead and name one...

Brett Lee vs. Shoaib Akhtar



_____

ICL Ko Support Karo Yaro...

BCCI Ko Joote Chappal Maro....

crabbage
crabbage
08 November, 2008 03:25
Lee because he is a team player 2nd i hate aktar,i don't like non team players i think they are not worth involvement within a team.
Also lee faster,altho aktar at best was better,but just not a fan of his.If you said akram well then i am a fan with all hes' done,plus he overcame diabeies,which i now have,type 2.

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
08 November, 2008 17:53
Quote:
Birbal
Quote:
Roberts v Lille is not a good pair....not too many have seen much of them.

If you watch Zee TV you will see LOTS and LOTS of them both...(Sm7)

Why..have they also joined ICL winking smiley

Lee and Akhtar were the express men of early 2000s.
Akhtar was fatser and more devastating...when Lee a bit of loose canon in their early days.

Akhtar brooke down physically and disciplinarily......while Lee steadied and slowed down...and gave himself longevity.


My Verdict----Akhtar WINS...he was by far more mercurial, more devastating on his day.


Next Pair proposed Walsh vs. McGrath

Atul
Atul
08 November, 2008 19:41
ROberts-Lille ---> Lille
Akhtar-Lee --> Akhtar
Walsh - Mcgrath----> Mcgrath

next pair proposed Warne - Murli

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
08 November, 2008 19:56
next pair proposed Warne - Murli

==>>Murali wins....for he can throw a javelin and Warne can't smiling smiley

#1fan
#1fan
08 November, 2008 20:06
dravid vs steve waugh...

MESSAGES->author
ananthd
08 November, 2008 21:28
Dravid vs Tugga as batsmen?

Dravid has the better record obviously with an incredible away average and a near world record holder in Tests....

But if I have to pick among the two, I'll pick Waugh, because of the monumental role he played in the revival of the Aussie fortunes under Mark Taylor in the 1995 Aussie tour of the West Indies....

The guy showed complete stones in standing up to Ambrose & co and that was the changing of the power guard from the West Indians to the Australians that stood till 2008...

Waugh was a tougher captain than Dravid; I don't need to belabor this; even with strong personalities like Warne in the side, he had a demeanor that was unflappable and could'nt be trampled....

The guy who basically started sledging as an art form and taught it to the Indians....

The winner: Stephen Waugh...

Ok, here's a tough one: Viv Richards vs Sachin Tendulkar....

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
09 November, 2008 04:50
Ok, here's a tough one: Viv Richards vs Sachin Tendulkar....


==>Richards---for he was a demolisher all the way.

Not that Tendulkar has any less talent...but sueffred from self imposed constrains of seniority, responsibility, get-set, build a inning, play-for-tea type "Gavaskarism" syndromes....which were perhaps suited for Gavaskar and Dravid type talents but don't apply to Tendulkar and Sehwag type mercurial talents.

crabbage
crabbage
10 November, 2008 02:57
Richards more devastating scared opposition bowlers,utter arrogance that sachin never had.

#1fan
#1fan
10 November, 2008 03:29
batsman's of two different eras.

you can never compare.

he was the best of his era..and sachin is the best for his era.

HADLEE VS KAPIL

crabbage
crabbage
10 November, 2008 10:42
Hadlee hands down much the better bowler,kapil defintely more a batsmen than hadlee ever was,hadlee was just a slogger.
Hayden vs greendige.

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
10 November, 2008 10:56
Hadlee defnitely better than Kapil

Gaurang
Birbal
10 November, 2008 16:59
Kapil Much better ALL ROUNDER... than Hadlee...

He may have stayed on a bit longer and allowed his bowling figures to deteriorate but against the best batting sides...i.e. West Indies, Australia and Pakistan Kapil matches Hadlee very well...as bowler...

And as batsman there is no comparison...



_____

ICL Ko Support Karo Yaro...

BCCI Ko Joote Chappal Maro....

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
10 November, 2008 17:18
Hadlee a better allrounder than Kapil

Gaurang
Birbal
10 November, 2008 17:32
Kapil is way better all rounder..



_____

ICL Ko Support Karo Yaro...

BCCI Ko Joote Chappal Maro....

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
10 November, 2008 17:42
Hadlee a better allrounder

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
10 November, 2008 17:59
If there is one slot in my team and the two to choose from in the end of their career forms..... f..I will take Hadlee....and you can happily take Kapil Dev.

Your will deliver you an average of 5 runs more.....and mine will deliver an average 5 wkts more winking smiley

Gaurang
Birbal
10 November, 2008 18:50
Maybe if we were playing on NZ greentops...

But if we were playing in West Indies...against the World Champs...

Then Kapil averages 5 runs more with the bat... 27 versus 22

and 4 runs less with the ball 23 v 28....



_____

ICL Ko Support Karo Yaro...

BCCI Ko Joote Chappal Maro....

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
10 November, 2008 18:56
Stats cut, extracted, sliced and diced appropriately can be used to prove moon yello, sun-silver and joginderrr world class.

Fact is Kapil was only 2/3rd a bolwer by 1984...and spent the next decade living on the interest of greatness deposited in the bank in the first 5 or 6 years

MESSAGES->author
ananthd
10 November, 2008 19:00
Anu, why are talking "end of career" forms?

Why not the whole career?

You can pick, Hadlee, I'll be very happy with Kapil....

The guy was a FAR better batsman & fielder than Hadlee....

Besides, as ODI bowlers its a tossup between Kapil & Hadlee, whereas Kapil won the ODI world cup, almost single handedly...

Kapil, in a canter....

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
10 November, 2008 19:04
Foget ODIs.
world measure greatness and immortality on the test macth scale.

from 1984 and barring the 1992 tour of Aus...Kapil was a trundling medium pcaer averaging under 3wkts/ test.

Hadlee from 1985 until end was proba nearly striking at 6 wkts / test.

Any Day...I would pick Hadlee

MESSAGES->author
ananthd
10 November, 2008 19:09
Why forget ODIs?

They were an important, growing form of the game at the time...

Besides, Hadlee played only 86 Tests....

And why are you comparing them only as bowlers....

It isn't just the average as batters; Kapil scored at an extremely fast clip, excellent slipper and a very good outfielder....

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
10 November, 2008 19:17
After Jan 1984 onwards kapil played 55% of his tests and took only 40% of his wkts


at a SR of 77 bals / wkt
and at 2.7 wkts / test


If Bangar or Amarnath could bowl as many overs......they would not do worse than 2.7 wkts / test at 77balls / wkt

filtered 1984-1994 69 126 2399.5 618 6023 187 8/106 8/109 32.20 2.50 77.0 5 0


Series averages Series Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 Start Date Winner
India in Pakistan Test Series, 1984/85
2 2 34.5 4 126 1 1/104 1/104 126.00 3.61 209.0 0 0 17 Oct 1984 drawn
England in India Test Series, 1984/85
4 8 161.5 33 436 10 4/81 4/100 43.60 2.69 97.1 0 0 28 Nov 1984 England
India in Sri Lanka Test Series, 1985
3 6 129.4 30 372 11 3/74 5/110 33.81 2.86 70.7 0 0 30 Aug 1985 Sri Lanka
India in Australia Test Series, 1985/86
3 6 118.0 31 276 12 8/106 8/109 23.00 2.33 59.0 1 0 13 Dec 1985 drawn
India in England Test Series, 1986
3 6 128.2 36 306 10 4/52 5/119 30.60 2.38 77.0 0 0 5 Jun 1986 India
Australia in India Test Series, 1986/87
3 5 45.0 12 124 0 - - - 2.75 - 0 0 18 Sep 1986 drawn
Sri Lanka in India Test Series, 1986/87
3 5 88.0 22 231 9 4/69 5/105 25.66 2.62 58.6 0 0 17 Dec 1986 India
Pakistan in India Test Series, 1986/87
5 9 162.0 37 430 11 3/46 3/48 39.09 2.65 88.3 0 0 3 Feb 1987 Pakistan
West Indies in India Test Series, 1987/88
4 8 113.0 35 309 8 3/41 4/85 38.62 2.73 84.7 0 0 25 Nov 1987 drawn
New Zealand in India Test Series, 1988/89
3 6 89.0 22 232 10 3/21 4/92 23.20 2.60 53.4 0 0 12 Nov 1988 India
India in West Indies Test Series, 1988/89
4 7 146.5 31 385 18 6/84 7/103 21.38 2.62 48.9 2 0 25 Mar 1989 West Indies
India in Pakistan Test Series, 1989/90
4 5 168.4 50 378 12 4/69 7/151 31.50 2.24 84.3 0 0 15 Nov 1989 drawn
India in New Zealand Test Series, 1989/90
3 4 102.5 18 305 5 3/89 3/89 61.00 2.96 123.4 0 0 2 Feb 1990 New Zealand
India in England Test Series, 1990
3 6 128.0 23 445 7 2/66 3/136 63.57 3.47 109.7 0 0 26 Jul 1990 England
Sri Lanka in India Test Match, 1990/91
1 2 37.4 18 50 5 4/36 5/50 10.00 1.32 45.2 0 0 23 Nov 1990 India
India in Australia Test Series, 1991/92
5 10 284.0 76 645 25 5/97 8/163 25.80 2.27 68.1 2 0 29 Nov 1991 Australia
India in Zimbabwe Test Match, 1992/93
1 2 54.0 17 93 3 2/22 3/93 31.00 1.72 108.0 0 0 18 Oct 1992 drawn
India in South Africa Test Series, 1992/93
4 8 165.0 46 299 8 3/43 3/62 37.37 1.81 123.7 0 0 13 Nov 1992 South Africa
England in India Test Series, 1992/93
3 6 51.2 15 133 7 3/35 3/56 19.00 2.59 44.0 0 0 29 Jan 1993 India
Zimbabwe in India Test Match, 1992/93
1 2 17.0 5 41 1 1/37 1/41 41.00 2.41 102.0 0 0 13 Mar 1993 India
India in Sri Lanka Test Series, 1993
3 5 93.1 39 159 5 2/34 2/60 31.80 1.70 111.8 0 0 17 Jul 1993 India
Sri Lanka in India Test Series, 1993/94
3 6 56.4 14 176 7 3/73 5/114 25.14 3.10 48.5 0 0 18 Jan 1994 India
India in New Zealand Test Match, 1993/94
1 2 25.0 4 72 2 1/29 2/72 36.00 2.88 75.0 0 0 19 Mar 1994 drawn

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
10 November, 2008 19:19
Quote:
ananthd

It isn't just the average as batters; Kapil scored at an extremely fast clip, excellent slipper and a very good outfielder....

In my eyes...an allrounder must primarly be picked as a bowler.

If there is one slot and Shastri and Akram to choose from....both labelled allrounder.....10 out of 10 times I would pick Akram despite his batting average being half of Shastri.

MESSAGES->author
ananthd
10 November, 2008 19:39
That's your bias; Akram wasn't even an allrounder(you can call him that); Shastri wasn't an allrounder too in my book(he hardly bowled in the second half of his career)...

In my book, an allrounder is somebody who can be picked EITHER AS A bowler or a batter....

For me the better cricketer always wins, when you are comparing allrounders....

If you had stated:
Compare Kapil & Hadlee AS BOWLERS;(ignore BATTING & FIELDING)
in TESTS;
PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO STATS AFTER 84;

YES, THEN HADLEE IS BETTER THAN KAPIL...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2008 19:41 by ananthd.

Gaurang
Birbal
10 November, 2008 23:27
Anu_d has had a rough week..

Dhoni is doing brilliantly...

Ganguly is retired...

Chalo Anu ko itna taang bhi nahin karna chahiye.... Yeah Right!!!..smiling smiley

Anyway time to move to the next comparison...

Wasim Akram v. Malcolm Marshall



_____

ICL Ko Support Karo Yaro...

BCCI Ko Joote Chappal Maro....

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
11 November, 2008 01:04
Re: Head to Head aka H2H new
Posted by: ananthd (IP Logged)
Date: 10 November, 2008 19:39



In my book, an allrounder is somebody who can be picked EITHER AS A bowler or a batter....


==>>Kapil would not get picked as a bowler ( 2.7 wkts/ test is pathetic).

In my definition a good allrounder is a bowling allrounder.....who must hold his place as a bowler first...and then his batting becomes a bonus.

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
11 November, 2008 01:08
Quote:
Birbal
Anu_d has had a rough week..
==>>(Sm113) Must be in your dreams

Dhoni is doing brilliantly...

==>>The whole nation is happy about it

Ganguly is retired...


==>>Gracefully, with his head held high, averaging 55+ in his last series.

Chalo Anu ko itna taang bhi nahin karna chahiye.... Yeah Right!!!


==>>LOL! Birbal I know why you are unhappy with me....because I picked Max ahead of you smiling smiley...and you quickly went and closed that thread sad smiley




Anyway time to move to the next comparison...

Wasim Akram v. Malcolm Marshall



==>>Akram the best and most mercurial bowler, a jaadugar of all times...wins hands down



#1fan
#1fan
11 November, 2008 03:47
akram anytime anyday.

how about the trophy india and australia jus played for..

sunil gavasker vs allen border!

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
11 November, 2008 04:58
Gavaskar anyday...anytime.

Next Chetan Chuhan vs. Kris Srikknath

MESSAGES->author
ananthd
11 November, 2008 07:32
Srikkanth, simply because of the impact he had on SMG as a more aggressive batter towards the end of his career...

I always felt his eccentricities as a player always made his partner more comfortable in the crease(Sunny has mentioned this in an interview)....

Seriously, although Chauhan was the obdurate opener, he could not drive opposition attacks batty as Srikkanth did on occasion...

Srikkanth wasted his talent, if only he had the drive of say a Sehwag, he could have easily averaged 40+ with a good strike rate....

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
11 November, 2008 09:44
Srikkanth was playing in an era when his talent was dismissed as recklessness.
and he didn;t do justice to his abilities....he was reckless.

Gaurang
Birbal
11 November, 2008 21:29
I'd pick Srikkanth only because as ananthd said...he could drive opposition batty...

Chauhan also had the advantage of playing with Sunny in his absolute PRIME... so naturally the batting average of their partnerships is higher...

Next is Kumble v. Chandrasekhar



_____

ICL Ko Support Karo Yaro...

BCCI Ko Joote Chappal Maro....

MESSAGES->author
anu_d
12 November, 2008 04:20
I haven't see Chnadra live...some recordings whihc are not truly reflectives...and heard stories.

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