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Points deduction
Discussion started by mama mia , 18 November, 2019 20:37
Points deduction
mama mia 18 November, 2019 20:37
Deducted 24 points for next season with 12 suspended for 2 years.

Re: Points deduction
Grizzers 18 November, 2019 20:49
Well done the ECB.

Why not just ban spin bowling ?

Come to think of it, why not throw SCCC out of the County Championship.

Farcical.

Grizzers

Re: Points deduction
Roger ivanhoe 18 November, 2019 21:05
It’s really a pity that other suspect pitches were not dealt with in the same way, by the Commission (ECcool smiley

Re: Points deduction
hantssabre 18 November, 2019 21:14
Perhaps we should now withdraw Jack from England duty! What a complete farce. Making sure we won’t win the CC next season! Peasants!

Re: Points deduction
wsm fan 18 November, 2019 21:57
September 2017 Mr Cooper set his lawyers on the ECB. Any possible middlesex points issue soon went away.....

Sadly we have no Chairman or CEO to put up a similar fight this time.

We are rudderless.
Why on earth did we sack Mr Cornish on Aug 22 and 3 months later still not have a replacement? With still no suggestion one will be in place this side of Xmas.

Re: Points deduction
adelaide 18 November, 2019 22:02
Making sure SCCC won't win the Championship? Like it has never been won by more than 12 points? It is a small percentage of the points theoretically available.

What would the ECB have done if Somerset, rather than the weather, had won the match? In those circumstances any penalty would surely have had to be applied to 2019, not 2020. Would Essex have been awarded the title nearly two months after the end of the season?

I also thought that a second offence had to be within twelve months and I imagine that would form part of the grounds for appeal. There may be a perception that Somerset have been sailing very close to the wind when it suited for several seasons but I'm not sure that would stand up if the regulations firmly stipulate twelve months.


Adelaide

Re: Points deduction
sfwithers 18 November, 2019 22:06
Frankly, the ECB can rot in their own festering corrupt juices. Shame upon them, shame upon them, shame upon them. This country is flushing itself down the sh***er and the ECB seems to be leading the way. Sorry, but I'm very angry, Somerset are a thorn in the ECB's side and the ECB seem intent on punishing them. Shame, shame, shame. I would say to appeal, but that'll probably make things worse.

Re: Points deduction
Grockle 18 November, 2019 22:19
How was the pitch classified as poor dies anyone know? Was it excessive spin? This was not related to the other pitch last season was it? That was over 12 months in relation to the Middlesex match wasn't it?

Even if they don't sppeal I would love to see the full jusgement of the reason. But even then there were a number of poor pitxhes last season in a number of places none of which were penalised or put on warning. Nice leaving present for Simon.

It's all ECB bollox



(Sm72)

Re: Points deduction
wsm fan 18 November, 2019 22:29
The pitch would have been totally down to Hurry Kerr Abell.
Simon Lee is a club employee.
He does as he is told.
Any blame for what was produced lies with Mr Hurry.

We knew exactly what we were doing.
We needed a 2 day result. We produced a putch accordingly.
We gambled. ECB have hit us.

Consistency of penalties across the season to all counties is another matter.....

Re: Points deduction
Grizzers 18 November, 2019 22:54
“Excessive unevenness of bounce”......

[es.pn]

Grizzers

Re: Points deduction
nelliec 18 November, 2019 22:55
Is this the first time a penalty for a poor pitch has been carried over to the following season.My interpretation was that a substandard pitch is dealt with by the match referee/inspector as soon as possible.
Would this have been the case if Somerset had beaten Essex?

Re: Points deduction
nelliec 18 November, 2019 23:07
[uccricket.ucweb.com]

Interesting to actually read cricket infos opinion of the pitch also.

Re: Points deduction
nelliec 18 November, 2019 23:13
There seems enough evidence in that summary alone to request an appeal,if only we had someone to fight our side.Mr Cooper😁

Re: Points deduction
cricketjerry-mouse 18 November, 2019 23:21
Saracens rugby club have blackened their name even further this month by constantly claiming `not us gov`, and saying they would appeal (or rather ask for a `review`), when fined £5 million-plus and deducted 35 points for breaking the Premier League salary cap three years in a row - and then deciding at the 11th hour (i.e. today) not to appeal after all.

Somerset should learn from Saracens` foolhardiness and accept the ECB ruling with dignity. When you are in a hole, stop digging.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/11/2019 02:58 by cricketjerry-mouse.

Re: Points deduction
Somerset LaLaLa 19 November, 2019 00:03
Surprised this has taken so long. There was some discussion on here at the time, looking back through the match thread:

scrmpywasp 27 September, 2019 13:36
"Unfortunately Mr Harrison, at the ground yesterday, was overheard to say some very disparaging things about the pitch and Somerset. Also the pitch inspector is apparently likely to pass the pitch as 'poor' and so may cause issues going into next year."

Bagpuss 27 September, 2019 15:19
"Someone I assume was the ECB's cricket liaison officer went out to look at the pitch whilst the Essex team were still celebrating on the outfield. He must have been out there the best part of half an hour taking pictures and samples, bouncing a ball in various places. "

I wonder how much influence Harrison's presence at Taunton has had on the decision?

Re: Points deduction
That Bloke With The Dog 19 November, 2019 00:12
Quote:
nelliec
Is this the first time a penalty for a poor pitch has been carried over to the following season.My interpretation was that a substandard pitch is dealt with by the match referee/inspector as soon as possible.
Would this have been the case if Somerset had beaten Essex?

This is the key thing. If Somerset had won the game, the 12-point deduction would have had to apply to the 2019 season, or the outcry would have been deafening. The ECB would have been slaughtered for letting Somerset "get away with it". Points deductions for offences during a season simply have to be applied during the season in question. Otherwise it's just an open invitation to commit the offence in the first place, knowing that the punishment might turn out to be irrelevant.

Having established that fact, the actual result of the Somerset v Essex game becomes irrelevant. Win or lose, Somerset should get 12 points deducted from their 2019 total, with the other 12 points suspended for the 2020 season.

What really depresses me, though, is firstly that I can't conceive of any personality still employed at the club with the nous or the will to effectively challenge this decision; and secondly, and much worse, I'm not sure that I even care that much any longer. The lunatic 10/8 split of the divisions; the uneven, ad hoc 14-match fixture list; the games played almost exclusively in the kind of weather which prevailed in that late-September match ... quite frankly, the Championship might as well be sponsored by Mickey Mouse from now on. Even if we did win it, it just wouldn't feel like the real thing.

Re: Points deduction
mikeindex 19 November, 2019 00:42
Obviously any points deduction, even if appropriate - a separate issue - should apply to the season in which the 'offence' is committed.
Making no difference to Somerset's 2nd place.
As Bloke says, if the pitch had been found guilty after Somerset won the Championship by eleven points and the penalty deferred to next season, there would have been an outcry among Essex supporters and others. It's been deferred - obviously - because it could make a difference to our championship position next year while last season's is beyond doubt.
I can't say I observed any striking inconsistency of bounce, but our personal opinions don't really come into it.
I see the no-toss rule - a splendid idea to my mind - is to be abandoned. No doubt, when looking for a way to encourage spin-friendly pitches in this country, someone neglected to envisage the possibility of the wrong county benefiting from it.

Points deduction
Following on 19 November, 2019 08:50
Looking at this from a different angle, perhaps this will promote a Fergie style siege mentality within the squad and be the driver to the first championship pennant.

Re: Points deduction
Shepton Paul 2 19 November, 2019 09:09
Gives us something to look forward to in April: all those other counties getting penalised for their lush green seamers as the wickets tumble and teams are regularly 80 all out by lunch on day one. That'll happen, won't it? Won't it?

Re: Points deduction
hantssabre 19 November, 2019 09:13
Nelliec - Hampshire started the T20 season on minus points a few years ago due to a dodgy pitch they prepared against Somerset the previous summer (seem to remember it was one of the original dust bowls)

Re: Points deduction
Dave65 19 November, 2019 10:11
I'm sure the Chairman and the CEO will fight our corner. Oh no wait a minute we still don't have either.

Re: Points deduction
stevecav 19 November, 2019 10:19
This is my first post on here for months largely due to circumstances. This makes me so angry. I know we have probably sailed close on this in recent times, and I agree that we should accept the decision and punishment with dignity and humility. The bit that makes me apoplectic is that the deduction applies to next year. OK if that's what the rules say. BUT: thinking back to Middlesex and arrowgate, I am certain that if Middlesex had won their appeal then the two points would have been reinstated to that table, and we would have been relegated. At no time do I recall any media coverage pointing out that if Middlesex won their appeal they would start life in Div 2 with plus 2 points. I may not have posted on here but I have followed closely events in cricket these last few months, right up to Andy Nash's involvement with the House of Commons Committee and his expressed views on The Hundred. The timing of this punishment after that leaves me with a queasy feeling. Something ain't right here. The ECB apppears to be a shameless, corrupt, incompetent organisation led by Harrison and Graves who have set out on a path to destroy county cricket and replace it with 'population centre based' (otherwise known as 'Test Match counties') cricket. The Championship schedule next year is even worse than this year. The farce of playing no real cricket in the months when kids are off school shows the lies that the ECB spew out. Our own locally developed talent is being taken away from us to play elsewhere sometimes when it doesn't matter, and sometimes when it does. County cricket as we know it is done for already. Test cricket will inevitably follow. As 20 and10 over slog cricket are of no interest to me, it looks like I'm done too. The ECB will get there way because they hold all the levers over the counties. And they are seemingly unstoppable. Sadly after 65 years I no longer care.

Re: Points deduction
somexile 19 November, 2019 10:19
If the points deduction was applied to season 2019 it could have affected Somerset by reducing the prize money but since we were so far ahead of 3rd place 12 pts drop made no difference to the final table placing.

Re: Points deduction
nelliec 19 November, 2019 10:42
So what would have happened if we beat Essex?
Would we be starting on -12 next season?

Re: Points deduction
adelaide 19 November, 2019 11:30
Quote:
That Bloke With The Dog
Points deductions for offences during a season simply have to be applied during the season in question. Otherwise it's just an open invitation to commit the offence in the first place, knowing that the punishment might turn out to be irrelevant.

But that's the thing, isn't it? If it was thought that the sanction could only be applied in 2019, the points situation would have meant exactly what you want to avoid, giving an open invitation to commit the offence in that last match. The only meaningful penalty in that circumstance is one carried over. (Football clubs going into administration in the last week of the season get whacked the following season for similar reasons.)

The Middlesex Arrowgate penalty was incurred with several matches to go. That is why nobody would have dreamt of carrying the penalty over to the next season. If only (from my point of view) it had been! The prospect of starting on -2 the next season would not frighten anyone anyway. I know it is difficult to do "what ifs" but my recollection of the maths before the last match was that it was the deduction that brought Somerset within range of Middlesex, thus Middlesex would have started the next season on -2 in Div 1 rather than 2. More to the point now, the pitch for that last match may well have been prepared differently. Whatever you think of that pitch (I am not seeking to reopen old wounds) is it just possible that what happened in the last match of 2017 was in the minds of those judging what happened in the last match of 2019?

Re: Points deduction
Somerset LaLaLa 19 November, 2019 11:40
Is Brian the cat or whoever is running the club going to appeal?

"2. The pitch prepared for the match was not the best quality pitch that Somerset CCC was able to prepare for the match."

What evidence is there that we had deliberately underprepared the pitch?

Anyone recall which pitch was used, presumably it was an old one given the end of the season? Was the pitch selection dictated by the best position for the tv cameras that is hardly our fault? As the match was played during on and off rain, maybe it dried unevenly?

Re: Points deduction
Tom Seymour 19 November, 2019 11:57
I am not paranoid about the E C B like so many on here. It is after all a body consisting of reps from all First Class and Minor counties. Save to say I hope the Hundred turns out to be the massive flop that it deserves to be but the financial ramifications will no doubt hurt all counties, and it will serve the County Chairman (including our own) right for voting it through.

The pitch prepared for the Essex game was very poor. From Day 1 the ball kept low on occasions and there was an unhealthy amount of turn as I saw it. Robert Key, one of the Sky commentators, said just this at the end of the game and added a comment that what would county cricket be like if all counties prepared their pitches in such a way? It was not a good cricket pitch, not good for cricket and we have to take the E C B's decision on the chin because we deserve it.

Do the barrack room lawyers really think that we could escape a punishment because the 12 month warning period had elapsed by a couple of days? What misguided tosh!

Andy Hurry is the guy who must take the rap for this. As Director of Cricket (and I personally wish we had selected someone else, but there you are) one of his personal responsibilities is to have overall control of the preparation of pitches. He would have given Simon Lee instructions on what type of pitch to prepare. He called it wrong and we have to start next season with - 12 points, and it serves us bloody well right. It is not a question of "poor unfashionable and non Test Match Ground Somerset" being victimised IMO and, proud and supportive of our club as we may be, we have to admit to being wrong, as we had to in the infamous Worcestershire declaration in 1979.

Finally on this post, I would like to praise and thank Simon Lee for all his skills and the hard work of his team since taking over from Phil Frost as Head Groundsman under difficult circumstances several years ago. I wish him every success at the Rose Bowl and trust that he will always be made to feel welcome at Taunton.



A glass half - empty or a glass half - full?
Regardless, both glasses need filling up.

Re: Points deduction
Shepton Paul 2 19 November, 2019 12:20
"Do the barrack room lawyers really think that we could escape a punishment because the 12 month warning period had elapsed by a couple of days?"

Er, actually, yes. If that's what the rules say, then that's what the rules say. There's no point in having rules if you conclude they weren't actually broken, but this party deserves the punishment anyway, so you'll punish them. That's nuts. If you're going to arbitrarily punish somebody despite the rules, cos "they deserve it", then there's no point in having them.

I've argued with the 1979 punishment on here and elsewhere many times before - not only did we not break the rules, we actually phoned Lord's to check we weren't breaking the rules - then got punished anyway! If you've broken the "spirit" of the rules, then the fault lies with those who wrote them...unless of course you have breaking the spirit of the game (which is always going to be hard to define) written in - and it's that of which you are found guilty. That situation is not the one in play here.

Similarly, the rule makers should be seen to be treating everyone equally, and dishing out judgements and punishments equally. That, to me, sticks in the craw today more than anything.

Re: Points deduction
Somerset LaLaLa 19 November, 2019 13:30
Quote:
Tom Seymour
I Andy Hurry is the guy who must take the rap for this.

Perhaps Tom you would like to tell us more? What specifically should we have not done / done differently with the pitch, since you are so quick to point the finger at Andy Hurry?

Do you believe Somerset are being treated equally in that other pitches elsewhere in the championship this season were not assessed as below average or poor?

How do you explain the considerable delay in the ECB reaching the decision?

The fact this was played at the end of September tells me all I need to know, unless you know otherwise Tom? If we could afford expensive lawyers, we would win an appeal

-12 Points (Sm31)
Scrumper 18 November, 2019 20:15
So the Essex pitch has been rated substandard.

Cricket Discipline Comission

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