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Eng vs Pak, First Test
Discussion started by AGod , 05 August, 2020 13:51
Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 05 August, 2020 13:51
Dom getting a cricketing education from the GREAT Babar Azam who, to be honest, is looking far, far too good for England on what looks a terrific cricket wicket with pace, bounce and a bit of turn.

Jos didn't help Dom by shelling the LHB.

If England don't improve sharply after the rain break?

"LLLL," as my chess computer used to say when I was a child and had crashed to an inevitable defeat.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2020 12:21 by Grockle.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
Grockle 05 August, 2020 17:05
Jos Missed him.... it's why you need a four day keeper!!

I don't think Steve Davies would have missed him despite the bounce and I'm pretty certain Foulkes would have got him too


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2020 17:06 by Grockle.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 05 August, 2020 17:07
Jos flubs a second one off Dom.

Not really good enough for keeping to spinners, I'm afraid.

Jos has by far the most test innings without a stumping in the history of the game. Double the number of the next guy.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
Grockle 05 August, 2020 17:15
If you are going to use spinners you have to have a keeper who can handle them.

I remember when we pulled Chawla in for a spell at Somerset and he came straight in. Craig (I think) hadn't kept to him and he had real problems in the first innings when he was bowling. So they went away and had two days of intensive work so Craig knew what was going on.

Light is not great, it did bounce but Jos is supposed to be the best we can put in that position and if you are going for a bloke who is athletic and can bat then you aren't picking someone with the full range of skills a Test keeper has to have.

It's why we should always pick Steve as our keeper and admit that if we give Tom Banton the gloves at the moment it is to extend our batting and Jack or Dom may lose a wicket if it spins. It is swings and roundabouts but good spinners who get stumpings get them because of the quality of the keeper.


Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 05 August, 2020 17:24
Yes, it was the first home game with Chawla - against Derbys - and there were 41 byes conceded in that one.... in a match that was lost by only 2 wkts - it was a bitterly disappointing defeat and the number of byes conceded was an obvious factor in such a close game. Chawla bowled 55 overs in that game.

Chawla bowled only 33 overs in the other 2 games that he played for us - without much incident, in terms of byes (I don't think it turned much in these two games).

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
Grockle 05 August, 2020 17:59
World class spinner with no relationship with the keeper behind the stumps. Carnage.

It's why keepers train with their bowlers. I can understand that they weren't probably expecting much spin to be bowled in these games ( a number of people were asking why Dom was playing, especially Mike Holding) but it's what the keeper has to do . If you want the spinner to tie people up then the keeper is part of that team. If they don't work on that then wickets and possibly extras go begging.

No disrespect to Jos but he's an adequate glove man for a short format game who they want to bat in Tests. This is the trade off (and it is a pretty bad one at the moment because he is not getting the runs either)


Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 05 August, 2020 18:16
Yeah, I think the comments from Holding etc were daft. Old Trafford has long been a spinner's surface.

And there's a fair chance that Yasir Shah may cause havoc on this - especially with Friday forecast to be hot and the surface having started dry.

I think Shane Warne's right about Dom, though. Almost all off-spinners are much better vs LHBs (I think Swann averaged 17 vs LHB and closer to 40 vs RHBs)... but Dom seems like he's not expecting much to happen and he seems to bowl with less vigour vs the RHB and I think that's an area of his game to work on .. trying to make something happen vs the RHB.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 06 August, 2020 14:27
Get Foakes in!

No way can Buttler survive this performance, surely?

Horrendous stuff.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
Shepton Paul 2 06 August, 2020 17:28
No doubt Dom will pay the price for Jos's mistakes. Warne was in the middle of his standard character assassination of a young spinner when he got his one wicket (a quarter of what he deserved). Of course, no credit was given to the bowler.

I genuinely feel that Root has no clue how to captain a spinner. If I was offered an over before lunch as regularly as Root offers Leach and Bess, I'd refuse to bowl it. Note Yasir Shah is on now with 45 mins left in the day - and all the seamers before him were bowling well.

Wouldn't be surprised if the selectors brought in Foakes - for Bess!

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 06 August, 2020 18:08
Actually, I think Warnie is usually quite supportive of spinners - he had some good things to say about Dom today - saying that he likes that Dom gives it a good rip and loves the way he bowls to left-handers.

Wasim Akram, on the other hand, was really rather critical of Shaheen Afridi this evening and without much cause, I thought... I mean the guy only went for, perhaps, 13 off 8 overs and took a wicket.

However, I tend to agree that the spinner may be made to carry the can for the 'keeping foibles..... the fact that Dom "dismissed," three times a batsman that no other England bowler came close to dismissing until the slog was on at the end, nothwithstanding.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 06 August, 2020 18:16
The really stupid thing about the Foakes vs Buttler thing is not only that the selectors ought to be able to work out that, on a turning track, you need your best 'keeper but also that there is, in any case, zero evidence that Jos is a better red-ball batsman than Foakes anyway..

Foakes averages 41 in Tests, Jos just above 30.

Foakes averages 38 in FC, Jos about 36.

So where's the evidence?

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
Grockle 08 August, 2020 13:36
Spinners getting down to it at the Test.


Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
Nailsea_Fizz 08 August, 2020 15:32
Jos leading the charge

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
Grockle 08 August, 2020 16:50
Well it is in his skill set this one. Well done to Chris Wiakes for working with him.


Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 08 August, 2020 17:52
I'm afraid that Azhar Ali will come under the microscope.

There was a period when Buttler and Woakes started to bat very, very well... but Az was too quick to pull Yasir from the firing line.

When Yasir came back, later, he bowled quite brilliantly, and England's survival against him ended up owing, I think, as much to luck as to judgment..... but ultimately, he was out of the attack for too long when Jos and CW were building their stand. Had he been brought back 25 runs earlier, then the outcome may, conceivably, have been different in the end. Pakistan were utterly unable to get the ball reversing....... perhaps the lush outfield mitigated against it.

Well done to Jos for his batting - the period in which he and Woakes put on their first 50 may have been the best batting I have seen from him in a Test, but I'm afraid it doesn't alter the point about keeping to spinners.. certainly not if the ball is turning.

If it were me, I'd still bring Foakes in with the gloves. But maybe Jos should play instead of Crawley as a batsman?

I suspect, though, that England may elect to play no spinner at all for the final two Tests, in which case they surely won't bother to change the 'keeper at all.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
cricketjerry-mouse 08 August, 2020 18:23
How on earth does Jos Buttler keep his place in the England side, especially as he has the formidable trio of Mike Atherton, Nasser Hussain and AGod continually calling for his removal?

But then again, I suppose Atherton and Hussain showed their judgement before the current Test started, by calling for Chris Woakes to be dropped in order to play Zac Crawley as an extra batter.

Still, there`s another chance to leave Buttler and Woakes out at Southampton on Friday.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 08 August, 2020 18:59
I can only assume you didn't see his keeping then, CJM?

Jos has never effected a stumping in a Test. Not once. He has played, now, double the number of Tests of the player with the next highest record of Tests kept in without a stumping. And I'm afraid it's easy to see why... hard hands and also hands that aren't very quick.

And even with his runs today, he still barely made it into plus runs territory for the match, given how many runs his flubs cost England in the field... as i recall the Pak opener, Shan, was missed twice before reaching 50 and went on to make well over 100, plus the runs that were added in his subsequent partnerships, too.

Calling for Woakes to be dropped is, however, idiotic given his record as a bowler in England (which is better even than Jimmy's, average wise). I assume they were doing so because Woakes had averaged only 5 with the bat in his past 6 Tests but, still, his record as a bowler is such that it would have been daft.

Finally, CJM, if Atherton and Hussain were calling for *Crawley* to replace Buttler, then who, pray, was going to be their wicket-keeper? Were they saying make Pope do it? That would have made little sense. But it would still have been more sensible than having no wicket-keeper at all, which would have been the only other alternative based on what you say they were calling for.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2020 19:06 by AGod.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 08 August, 2020 19:01
Anyway, unluckily for Dom, it will most likely be Crawley for Bess for the next match.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
Scrumper 08 August, 2020 22:09
I'd rest Anderson and bring in Foakes as w/k. It would be so unfair on Dom if he was dropped. Keep Jos as batman.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
Bagpuss 08 August, 2020 23:02
This article is a bit out of kilter with the spirit of the thread now Englandchave secured a famous (and certainly in my case unexpected) victory. Would have sat better after day1 or 2. But it is interesting, as are some of the stats.

And Alastair Cook. No wonder Essex's fortunes prospered once they were able to play their England opener.


Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 09 August, 2020 06:32
I'd always assumed that Jarrod Kimber was a journalist, pure and simple. Does he have some sort of coaching background, or did Shan really turn to a journo for cricketing help? Anyway, credit to Shan for working so hard.

The stats about overseas openers were broadcast a lot during the Sky coverage.

And they present a dilemma for Mr Hurry when it comes to overseas signings in my view.

SCCC have a very obvious problem at the top of our order. And two overseas players will be permitted... BUT almost all overseas openers fail... and not only in Test cricket. Witness the travails of Azhar Ali and Murali Vijay.

Tom Lammonby has, according to the man himself, very little experience opening the batting at any level. And it's already tough to step up from second XI cricket to first team anyway.. Eddie Byrom is still striving to full establish himself.

Yet the list of foreign opening batsmen accomplished in English conditions is short. Of those on it one - Chris Rogers, has retired. Another, Dean Elgar, did the dirty on us - claiming that he wouldn't return to Somerset because he needed a rest, and then promptly taking a deal with Alec Stewart (if he'd just been honest about it, I wouldn't have minded!)

In my opinion, Somerset should abandon their recent practice of looking for an overseas top three batsman as one of the overseas slots because what might be called the differential return (that is runs made by overseas top three player minus runs made by whatever home produced player we might use) at those spots is liable to be smaller than for an overseas batsman coming in five or six.

So, if I was Mr Hurry/Jason, I'd look at possibly re-jigging things for next season when, it is to be hoped, CC1 will resume properly. George Bartlett had some good scores at three a couple of years ago... then this got interrupted by the "Hildreth to bat three for England," bandwagon. I'd look at restoring George to number 3, and consider asking Tom A to open. Since Tom Banton will be with the international T20 travelling circus for most of the time, that would create a vacancy at number 5, which might be a better place either for Tom Lammonby to make his way in the side, or for an overseas player to produce better returns than we might get from a homegrown player.

On balance, I suspect we might be better with no overseas batsmen at all and instead using the overseas slots to bolster a bowling attack which includes a Craig who might be with England, a Jack who is injury-prone, Josh, Lewis and the two youngsters, Nathan Gilchirst and Kasey Aldridge. It might be that a couple of bowling all-rounders could be the order of the day. And if Dom leaves and Jack Leach is with England, then we might want to consider one spin bowling all-rounder and one pace bowling all-rounder to bolster our squad?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2020 06:33 by AGod.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 09 August, 2020 06:52
I suppose Hurry might re-target Matt Renshaw because I don't think he's in the Aus team at the moment? (if he does want a top-order overseas).

If he wants somebody a bit lower down.. has Faf Du Plessis now retired from Tests? I know he's had a hard time with the SA Captaincy. I can't imagine he'd be perceived as having much value left on the international T20 treadmill, so if he has quit (or does quit) Tests, might he be an option in the middle order?

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
hantssabre 09 August, 2020 08:48
No thanks to Faf. Wasn’t very good at Lancashire if I remember. Never really rated the guy

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 09 August, 2020 09:18
His return for Lancs was poor indeed...... 398 runs @ 23.41.

That was, however, 12 years ago.

Anyway, I checked and he's still playing for SA, so unlikely to be an option.

We're going to have to recognise - ahead of the decision, that it's immensely unlikely that we'll be able to find perfect choices, given that:

a) One imagines that at least the nine CC1 Counties will be after two overseas players = 18 players needed

b) I'd assume that the CC2 lot may sign an average of one each (some may sign none, some may sign two e.g. Notts etc) = 9 more players needed

c) Covid has caused a huge backlog of international fixtures that need to be caught up with

Based on the above assumptions, the county game as a whole will need to find 9 more overseas players than has previously been the case at a time when *more* international cricket will be on the calendar.

Andy Hurry may well have to search high and low......... of course, if there are players of sufficient quality that are out of contract from the domestic scene, then it might be that we would be better investing all resources there, and eschewing the overseas route, given the above issues?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2020 09:19 by AGod.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
hantssabre 09 August, 2020 09:48
The only other side is some of the Kolpaks will be coming back as overseas next season

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
Bagpuss 09 August, 2020 11:56
Won't we be looking to get Babar Azam next year - I thought we offered him a contract for all formats for the early half of the season this year. Being from Pakistan he's not going to have any IPL conflicts and I'd be pretty happy with him as overseas. Wouldn't think he'd open though and I worry about pushing Tom A up to the top of the order - we could turn a captain who potentially makes big hundreds and averages 40 odd (hollow laugh looking at Northsmts game scorecard but hey ho) into one who struggles and loses confidence.

He has the potential to make a LOT of runs for us. And be an excellent captain. Let's not mess him about whilst he's still in an early stage of his career.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
Grockle 09 August, 2020 12:06
As a bat option surely he is a no brainer. Plays all 3 formats and is good in them all. Him and Banton opening in ganes would be like the days of Lath and Banger. Get there before the start!!


Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
AGod 09 August, 2020 12:38
I assumed that Babar would be busy either with internationals or with the PSL.

However, I note that the PSL is scheduled to be finished by the end of March.. so if there aren't international games for Pak to play (!?) then great? If there are Pak games, then obvs Babar likely to be the first name on their team sheet in all forms of the game.

If no Pak games, then maybe we should look at bringing one of Babar's international team-mates with him?

Depends what - if anything - we can get on the domestic market, too, of course.

For example, if - as I suspect - Dom Bess flies the nest, then Shadab Khan might, perhaps, be a suitable replacement. Shadab's theoretically a leg-spinner but, in reality he's a wrist-spinner that bowls mainly googlies and looked like he would be very handy against LHBs. Looks a fast and agile fielder and useful batsman too. Or maybe one of the Pak quicks.. that's always assuming Pak aren't playing internationals.

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
Nailsea_Fizz 09 August, 2020 12:58
Where's all this money ximing from to pay current international cricketers for a full season?

Re: Eng vs Pak, First Test
cricketjerry-mouse 09 August, 2020 13:20
Ben Stokes is flying to New Zealand to be with his father, who is unwell, and will miss the last two Tests against Pakistan. Mr Stokes senior, who was a Rugby League coach, brought Ben to England as a youngster.

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