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Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
Discussion started by chunkyinargyll , 22 September, 2017 10:54
Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
chunkyinargyll 22 September, 2017 10:54
A must not lose game.

Which, as it is bound to be a 'result' pitch equates to a 'must win' game.

No TRJ or Ollie, because of injuries.

My guess:-

Robson, Gubbins, Compton, Malan, Voges, Simpson, Harris, Sowter, Helm, Murtagh, Finn.

That is a horribly long tail, because our bacon was saved in the last match with TRJ and Ollie both making first innings 50's.

Tempting to think two spinners are essential- but it seems anyone who knows how to bowl can pick up wickets there, as their seamers/quicks don't do badly either.

If two spinners, Patel for Helm.

Sowter's potential ability with the bat (he does have a second team hundred to his name) gives him the advantage in my book, as the tail is long enough as it is.

Only other viable alternative- Stirling at 7, and lose a front line bowler..

Eski seems to have run out of steam, so I recall Gubbins.

PS- Don't forget- Monday start.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2017 20:52 by Leprechaun.

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
Fozzie 22 September, 2017 11:31
Team selection will be tricky. I would have Stirling instead of Harris, which strengthens the batting and adds a decent part-time spinner to the mix. Against that, it puts a lot of responsibility on Sowter to be one of just four frontline bowlers, but I'm not sure that we can get round that. It will be a spinners' wicket and Ollie will be a big loss, but the team will just have to get on with it.

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
Fozzie 22 September, 2017 16:19
The club have announced that Toby has a stress fracture in his lower back and, as expected, will miss the rest of the domestic season.

Hope he's OK to go to Australia.

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
Sussex Seaxe 22 September, 2017 16:22
What a shame for Toby. I'm sure everything will be done to give him the right balance of rest and strengthening to get on that plane. I do wish him well and very much hope he makes it - I felt really sad when I heard.

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
The Diamond ruled ok 22 September, 2017 16:58
Good luck with getting out to Oz Toby.

Might end up going the Lion's route into the Test set up once his back is sorted at least that way he is on the same continent rather than at home re-couperating.

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
tallliman 22 September, 2017 17:10
Looks like we'll start the game 16 points ahead of Somerset and 3 ahead of Hampshire. So as a minimum, we need more bonus points from the game than Somerset to stay up.

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
chunkyinargyll 22 September, 2017 17:12
Updated table (everyone played 13 matches)

Essex 228
Surrey 159
Lancashire 156
Yorkshire 145
Middlesex 143
Hampshire 140
Somerset 127
Warwickshire 78

If Somerset were to beat us, they would have one more win than us, so if level on points with them, they would stay up.

Hampshire have, on paper, the easiest opposition, as they play Warwickshire.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/09/2017 17:14 by chunkyinargyll.

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
chunkyinargyll 22 September, 2017 17:17
It's unusual for a team to win, and not take at least the same, if not more bonus points than the opposition.

If only we had those two extra crossbow points we'd be almost over the line.

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
dingy bags 22 September, 2017 17:30
Higgins not Harris for me. Better batsman and will do a job with the ball.

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
adelaide 22 September, 2017 18:23
The infamous two points might relegate us. But they will surely make a difference to how both sides approach the match.

With those points in hand Somerset would have known that they had to collect two more bonus points than us as well as win. Which would have made a "100 all out" pitch a major risk.

Without them any win apart from a serious come-from-behind effort is likely to do. Said "100 all out" pitch thus does the job for them as long as the pitch is good enough to avoid a points deduction, which their pitches always have done so far. I can't see the ECB wanting to relegate a team on that basis anyway. All that Somerset's defeat today means is that not quite any win will do.

Full marks to Paterson and Fisher for pulling their match out of the fire. It would have been an unexpected bonus if they had lost but at one time it looked highly likely. It's the hope that kills you. We did get second prize, with Hampshire losing, and losing in (one hopes!) a morale-sapping manner. Given the way Warwickshire scrapped to the end that match is by no means a gimme. So it is just possible that we could stay up even with a defeat at Taunton.

I think we have to be prepared to play two spinners, despite their lack of experience. Somerset seamers have usually taken some wickets but they have the experience of bowling on such surfaces regularly. As of course do their spinners but Bess would not have had much when he was thrown in late last season. I would be absolutely amazed if it is not a bunsen, unless the weather has made such a pitch hard to produce. Remember how they changed the pitch last year an hour before the start when they realised Murtagh wasn't playing?


Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
chunkyinargyll 22 September, 2017 18:31
Okay- I have a cunning plan.

As the away team, we can bowl first.

It's bound to be a result track, so scores will be low.

Make Somerset bat first. Bowl them out for 299 or less (as result track, highly probable)

They get 2 batting points, we get 3 bowling points, taking them to 129, and us to 146- a difference of 17 points.

We declare our first innings on 0-0, so even if Somerset win, they still finish a point behind us.

Would constitute an 'extraordinary declaration' unfortunately, but it would be great if we could get away with it.


Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
Jonathan Winsky 22 September, 2017 18:50
Although I would prefer to be in employment, I enjoyed switching between today’s three division one matches. It was great for Middlesex that Somerset and Hampshire both lost to ease some pressure off us, which means I shouldn’t be too disappointed despite Yorkshire winning.

If anyone wonders what would happen if we finish level on points with Hampshire and match their result, we would finish ahead, as the teams would be level on wins and defeats, taking it to head-to-head. When the teams met at The Rose Bowl in April the teams took 10 points each, and when the sides met at Uxbridge last week we took 9 points and Hampshire took 8. I thought we also had the edge on Somerset under the tie-breaker system, but I then realised it was irrelevant due to the only scenario in which we would finish level with them being one in which they secure a fourth win of the season to gain the edge on us.

I suppose we will have to enter this match in exactly the same way as any other match, i.e. with our first aim being to get onto the front foot, then our next aim being to achieve what we feel is the best result. Although a draw will be good enough regardless of bonus points, it may be difficult to kill any possibility of a result if it is a result pitch.

Regardless of how the pitch plays, it is a big blow that Toby Roland-Jones and Ollie Rayner will miss this match. Thankfully, the other fast bowlers in contention are all quality players. If the pitch takes spin as expected, then it would be a very unfortunate time for Rayner to get injured. It is not Rayner’s first injury of the season, as he also missed the match v Warwickshire at Lord’s, but that could be a blessing in disguise, as at least it meant Nathan Sowter played in that match and would not be making a first-class debut were he to play in this crucial match. I would like Ravi Patel to play in this match, as I am a fan of him, and I find it sad that he has slipped down our pecking order, although I suppose we could get by with one main spinner if our fast bowlers do their jobs and if our part-time spinners help out if required.

It will be interesting to see if Stevie Eskinazi retains his place after his loss of form. His situation would have been more precarious had anyone in first-team contention made a big score v Warwickshire 2nd XI at Merchant Taylors’ School, but that didn’t happen. Nick Gubbins scored 7 and 6, while Max Holden scored 8 and 12. I doubt Ryan Higgins will be rewarded for taking four wickets and scoring 28 and 26. In that match, Patel (3-89, 34 and 12) outperformed Sowter (0-99, 6 and 2). Eski is an ever-present in the County Championship this season, alongside John Simpson.

If we select two spinners, there is no guarantee that our followers can take a break from fretting about our over rate, as Rayner and Patel both played v Sussex at Lord's in 2015 (one of the few occasions we have selected two spinners there in recent years), yet we still managed to suffer a one-point deduction.

Despite our fears we could be relegated, it is also possible that we could finish in the prize money positions of the top five. We are not the only team who have both possibilities open to them.

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
Bring back the Crusaders 22 September, 2017 20:19
Like the cunning idea of bowling first and declaring our first innings on 0-0 but the hierarchy would not be able to handle the criticism.
The chances of rain in the west country are always high so the probability is that only 3 days play out of the 4 will be completed.
If we pack the team with batsman and try to bat out 6 sessions (a tall order at the moment I know) we should ensure a draw.
Negative I know but survival at all costs!!

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
The Diamond ruled ok 22 September, 2017 20:45
If we packed the top order with batsmen we would be lucky to bat out three sessions the way we have performed with the bat this year.

No Ollie could be the clincher in this game .

Loving Chunky's idea of a 0/0 declaration and is it any worse than a team declaring 8 down and short by 1 run of a batting point just to deny the opponent an extra bowling point anyway ?

Within the spirit of the game surely means playing to win ?

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
freddie tittlemouse 22 September, 2017 22:43
Harris is not a number 7 (scored 1 and 1 in last game) We either have to stick Higgins or Franklin or an extra batsman in there.

Demonstrates yet again the big hole we have at no. 7 which must be filled!

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
adelaide 22 September, 2017 22:57

Yes. It's a lot worse. A declaration at 0-0 is clearly designed to scupper your chances of winning the match and that is (I think) what counts. The fact that it ensures survival, a championship, progression to the next round or whatever is irrelevant. See the Brian Rose one day declaration, Carew etc. It also short changes the paying customers big time.

There were some eyebrows raised when we and another county declared recently at much the same time at 8 down on the last day of a rain-ruined match, depriving the opposition of the chance of the third bowling point but it must have been cleared with the umpires first. It seemed particularly rum in our case as it enabled us to hit out for extra batting points at seven wickets down without risk. But whatever else it did, it had no impact on the zero chance of winning (or losing) the match.

The Glen Chapple declaration at Old Trafford in the 110th over was notable but it hardly affected their chances of winning the match and (quite rightly) was allowed. If they had declared at 200-2 after 50 overs that would have been another matter, though as they had to win the match it would have been a heck of a gamble. Worth noting though that if the BP situation had been different (for which read bowling the overs quicker against Sussex) Lancashire would have needed to get to 350.

Was it Justin Langer who declared Somerset's innings at 50-8 on the first morning at Lord's? That lost us a bowling point but he justified it by saying that he wanted his bowlers to have a go in the conditions while they lasted, thus it was increasing their chance of winning the match.

Most famous of all was surely the Brearley 0-0 declaration at The Oval which led to an amazing victory. Just a few overs had been possible on the first two days but that was enough to stop the match being played as a one innings match on the third day. Now ... is there still an equivalent rule now? If there is no play at all on days 1-3, is a single innings match played, and if so for how many points?


Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
Jonathan Winsky 22 September, 2017 23:12
Unless they change their mind, I don't think Sky have any intention of showing any matches from this round. I would have thought it is more to do with England playing an ODI on Wednesday than due to the County Championship title already being won.

As Taunton doesn't have floodlights, the risk of time being lost due to bad light is higher than at most other main grounds.

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
The Diamond ruled ok 23 September, 2017 06:38
Already having had the one brush with the law (ECcool smiley and their totalitarian attitude this season ie "Arrowgate" it might not thereby be a good idea to wind them up and declare on 0/0 first dig,they may deduct us a zillion points and relegate us to the County League division 6 for it.

Good memory on the Langer and Brearley calls there adelaide,both had balls and I doubt a modern skipper would even think of it let alone try it.Best we just go and beat the Cidermen or do a 4 day rain dance.

Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
chunkyinargyll 23 September, 2017 07:37
Yes, the key to 'extraordinary declarations' is

a) have you done it because you are trying to win? (in which case declaring 8 wickets down is perfectly acceptable)

b) Have you done it just to deprive the opposition of points?

Provided you can prove a was your motive, b doesn't come in to it.

And the bar is quite high before the ECB will decide you weren't trying to even if a draw is the likely outcome you normally won't get a penalty, because you 'might' win.

Declaring on 0-0 is not 'trying to win'



Re: Somerset at Ciderabad 25-28 Sept 2017
Seaxe_Man 23 September, 2017 07:42
The Brearley declaration was at Lords Adelaide. Remember it well. Monty Lynch got a pair before lunch.

Agree with you, Hampshire may not find the Bears too much of a pushover.

The four points gained at Gatting Way on day 4 against Hampshire which gives us a three point cushion over them, could well prove to be very handy yet.

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