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Happy Middlesex day
Discussion started by BarmierKev , 16 May, 2020 13:06
Happy Middlesex day
BarmierKev 16 May, 2020 13:06

Re: Happy Middlesex day
BeefyRoberts 16 May, 2020 14:32
Happy Middlesex Day to one and all.
Shame it can't be celebrated with all the plans that were going to happen.
Battle of Britain Bunker in Uxbridge...have visited this, after everything returns, I seriously recommend going along, will be surprised and amazed at the same time.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
adelaide 16 May, 2020 15:37
I dare say that Wessex Day and West Mercia Day have also been cancelled, not to mention the Monmouthshire is part of England campaign (which I donp't think I have made up).

The bit about using Middlesex in your address shows how little these guys actually know about history, at least postal history. Much of Middlesex has been in a London postal area since (I think) 1857. Southgate certainly was, despite being further out that Wembley, which wasn't. So in effect they are advising a large chunk of residents to incorporate a county name that even their great grandfathers would not have used. Postal addresses are for the Royal Mail's convenience - nothing else.

Let's celebrate the historic county by all means (the key word being historic perhaps) but they have resorted to some right old tosh to support the case.

BTW, it is probably just as well for some people's blood pressure that the Copthall side falls on the Middlesex side of the historic border. A mile or so north a ground at Underhill (say) would have been in historic Hertfordshire!

Re: Happy Middlesex day
Seaxe_man1 16 May, 2020 20:07
Lucky for Copthall then. Unlike Radlett.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
Seaxe_man1 16 May, 2020 20:15
All the places I have lived Alperton, Edgware, Pinner, South Ruislip, then Pinner have all been appended Middlesex since the year dot. One interesting one is the Jubilee Line it goes Wembley Park Middlesex, Kingsbury NW9, Queensbury Middlesex. Whoever dreamt that one up musta gone down the pub lunchtime Adelaide.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
Bobstan 16 May, 2020 20:41
I never understood the old situation of Barnet being Hertfordshire and Potter's Bar which is further north being Middlesex.

I know that PB is now part of administrative Herts, but I only deal in historic counties!

Yes, in Radlett one hears little else when perambulating than people complaining about not being in Middlesex.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
Bobstan 16 May, 2020 20:45
Middlesex so neat, so fair
Middlesex beyond compare,
Though we’re not sure where it is
We’re sure it’s there.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
Seaxe_man1 16 May, 2020 21:41
It sure is Bobstan. One of three counties in Jamaica.and a further one in New Jersey.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
Bobstan 16 May, 2020 22:28
Well, I didn't know that, Seaxe.

Somerset Day was 11th May. You didn't want to know that? I'm appalled, Humphrey.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
Seaxe_man1 16 May, 2020 22:40
In days of yore traditional counties boundaries were decided by hills, mountains and rivers. Logical natural features. Job creation schemes for bureaucrats in modern times and to bank up the council tax base and other political convenience mean lines on a map have replaced these. Hence now you have the natural border between Middlesex and Surrey, the Thames abrogated with Spelthorne, north of the River in Surrey allegedly. Potters Bar and South Mimms in Herts and Barnet now a Middlesex borough. In more sensible countries they tend to respect tradition more. Too much patronising of the political class here at the expense of the plebs goes on. In living memory, my council tax or rates as they known was 76 quid. Now close to two grand. I have a feeling if we had a more accountable Middlesex Council rather than the mess we have now. They would be lower.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
Seaxe_man1 16 May, 2020 22:48
No I didn't know Somerset Day was the 11 th. They messed about with your county with something called Avon. Though I think that is scrapped now. Devon and Cornwall so far unaltered. There was another joint called Humberside now gone. The biggest mystery is this joint West Midlands. The Heath guy and his lot and the sixties lot before him have plenty of mistakes to answer for. A few have been corrected.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
adelaide 17 May, 2020 01:42
SM

I think you will find that county borders historical were set up on the basis of the borders between estates. Sometimes these coincide with natural features. More often they do not. What natural features could explain why Potters Bar was in Middlesex and Barnet was not? Or North Woolwich being in Kent? Wasn't there once a detached "part of Flint" on the map?

So the origins of boundaries were actually to please the nobility (who were also the political class) of the day. The interests of the "plebs" had nothing to do with it. A real cynic might even argue that the encouragement of loyalty to your county was a subtle way of instilling loyalty to whichever families had managed to secure the big estates!

It is a curiosity that the western end of Middlesex had Middlesex postal addresses when the rest did not. My guess is that the substantial chunks with London postal addresses were more heavily populated earlier (if you see what I mean). It took the Met line to open up many of the areas for development (on land which the Met line owned, natch). I suppose whoever wrote the tosh that MCCC has reproduced lives at the western end and thinks we all had Middlesex addresses. but if people are going so far as to run a campaigning society, they really ought to be more up with the topics they write about. Goodness, it's Uxbridge vs Southgate (yes, the cradle of Middlesex cricket was in the London postal area) all over again.

The Kingsbury anomaly actually makes the point rather well. Nobody "thought it up" as such. They just had a mail service to organise. I think the tube line becomes the boundary between NW19 and HA whatever it is down to Wembley Park. You can see why that barrier matters a lot more to the Royal Mail than any other established boundary.


Adelaide

Re: Happy Middlesex day
freddie tittlemouse 17 May, 2020 12:23
I used to live in Sunbury which was well and truly north of the Thames and outside Greater London and I remember the outrage riots looting and pillaging which occurred when we were abruptly transferred to Surrey without a referendum.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
adelaide 17 May, 2020 13:02
Free the Sunbury seven hundred!

Some areas in Surrey (Epsom?) were, I think, initially slated to become part of Greater London. You can see why, as I think the housing is continuous all the way. The locals objected and they remained part of a reduced but still substantial Surrey. I suppose it was pretty clear that the bulk of Middlesex was going to be within Greater London so the bits that weren't, such as Sunbury, would not have made a sustainable county, so the choice was between rioting over becoming part of Surrey and rioting at becoming part of Greater London. Perhaps there was a pitched battle outside the Three Fishes between rival rioters - perhaps plebs and patricians!

It is also a good example of the law of unintended consequences. The idea was to swamp the Labour one party state of the LCC with the right-leaning outer boroughs. It worked, at times, early on but longer term it has worked out the other way round.


Adelaide

Re: Happy Middlesex day
Seaxe_man1 17 May, 2020 17:46
Some good news for Middlesex aficiandos from here in the Heart of the Middle. My wife when on her Covid 19 walk today strolled down along Yeading Brook in Pinner. There is small community orchard along there, one of three. The history board states that in the late 19th century locals unknown planted apple trees, one of which grows Rosemary Russet apples which is a kosher Middlesex apple. Also known as Benskins Russet who were a Watford Brewer. I join the call to free Spelthorne from under the Mexican yoke, and Potters Bar. Plus free the Middle from the politicos yoke at the moment steared erratically by Khan. In safe hands. leave it out.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 17/05/2020 17:57 by Seaxe_man1.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
Seaxe_man1 17 May, 2020 21:31
In a democracy, where the elite impose their schemes on the general populace without reference. It is unlikely to gain general approval. In this case, as a token gesture, many people decided to retain their traditional address. Though apart from the council the Middlesex infrastructure survives till this day. Judging from letters pages the majority in Spelthorne use Middlesex as their address and not Surrey. The elite effort to rewrite history never worked. Anyone fancy Greater London as their address. Likely the house price would drop.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
Bobstan 17 May, 2020 22:20
All very interesting. I was Somerset born and bred but my parents moved to Herts when I was only 5. Didn't stop me being a lifelong Somerset supporter.

Middlesex were always my number two team. I still, in more normal times, walk each week past the house that Bill Edrich lived in back in the 'Fifties in Hatfield, next door to a then young Tim Rice.
Also in Hatfield I used to cycle over to Hatfield to Fred Tittlemouse's shop - sorry, Titmus - and buy a minor item, usually sweets. Just occasionally the great man himself would be there, which was of course the point of the whole exercise.

Don't use language like 'Avon', please Seaxe. My father would have told me to wash my mouth out with soap. At least now Bath is in an area called Bath and North East Somerset.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
adelaide 17 May, 2020 22:28
SM

Yes, house prices in London (not Greater London) postal areas are so much lower than outside them - not.

Spelthorners would never use Surrey in their postal address because the Royal Mail did not bother to change their addresses in 1964. Why? Because it didn't matter to them as their structure bore little relation to any administrative boundaries. In fact they matter so little now that the Royal Mail actually dropped all postal counties from addresses a few years back. In theory the house number and the postcode should be sufficient but I've never risked trying it. Mind you, with my writing...


Adelaide

Re: Happy Middlesex day
Seaxe_man1 18 May, 2020 09:55
You hark romantically Adelaide back to the sixties seventies when the numpty political class of the era and their fourth estate friends persuaded everyone that ';big' was best. They then went about creating British Leyland ready for our entry into that place where the streets were paved with gold the Common Market. The first no longer exists, the second a Western version of the Soviet Union and run the same way. Umaccountable. Even the fourth estate, big fans of the big councils are now questioning who actually is in charge. I agree with you. The Tory scheme to control London by abolishing Middlesex was another failure by those clots led by a Harrow builder Horace Cutler who wanted to blast motorway boxes through London. It may well be on the address front that The Post Office is run by Middlesex supporters.

Re: Happy Middlesex day
adelaide 18 May, 2020 11:20
SM

It's ironic that someone so desperate to argue to turn back the clock and restore the historic county in one (which one? and why?) of its many forms accuses me of romantically harking back to the 1960s! Exploding the postal address myth is the opposite of romantic.

On the address front, as you put it, the Post Office did exactly the same (that is, absolutely nothing) in 1964 to postal addresses such as Ilford, Essex or Croydon. Surrey. It would have cost them money and gained them absolutely nothing, so why would they? Hard headed business acumen, even from a state-run business.

Roll on ten years to 1974. Everywhere had a postcode and with computers it was easy to change postal counties in addresses in bulk almost at the press of a button. Pretty pointless as there was still no benefit to the Post Office but the cost of the frippery was much less.

Your EU rant is beside the point but if it is run like the Soviet Union, where are the gulags? Even Surrey isn't that bad!

Oh, and Cutler wasn't the architect of the GLC, just one of the politicians who won a GLC election. Fortunately the "car is king" zeitgeist of the time faded but not before chunks of London like Hackney Wick had suffered from the early stages but at one stage there was a lot of support.


Adelaide

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