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Eating away over the winter


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Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
chunkyinargyll 14 August, 2020 06:50
Seaxe-Man-

I think the attitude with Shah was, 'You're a star on a stars pay, so we expect a stars performance'.

No idea how much money he would have been on ten years ago, but to keep it simple, if you have a star on £200k averaging 35 that isn't acceptable. A capped player (but not an out and out superstar) on £100k averaging 35 is more acceptable, because he has produced the same result, but for half the cost.

So although an average of 35 is 'acceptable' it's not acceptable if you are receiving the sort of pay that suggests you are the star player who should be averaging 50.

Adelaide- fairly sure Robbie White's contract is up at the end of the season. Jack Davies now seems to score a decent number of runs for the 2's and with Simmo clearly the number one keeper we don't need both White and Davies, so I guess White will be exiting shortly.

Josh De Caires may be a beneficiary of Lace's departure. He's scored more runs in the second Xi than Lace had at the same age. That's provided his dad doesn't persuade him to sign for Lanky instead.

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
Seaxe_man1 14 August, 2020 08:08
De Caires wasn't the standout bat versus Berkshire which I saw. That was Joe Cracknell followed by Hernandez and Max Harris of North Middlesex who looks a handy all-rounder. Hang on a minute, he has a release clause. De Caires may have one for Lancashire.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/08/2020 08:10 by Seaxe_man1.

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
Seaxe_man1 14 August, 2020 08:22
Shah was our best batter at that time and was instrumental in our only white ball win in 32 years in 2008. The regime of 2009 and since hasn't had a smell. Godleman went the same year and Tom Smith the next. Both still playing. There was a steady trickle then, now a flood which has reduced Mx to a comedy show on a par with the Keystone Kops. You still defend the undefendable chunky. The club is a mess.

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
chunkyinargyll 14 August, 2020 08:34
I think we're in danger of deciding every departure was a bad decision.

Godleman didn't just fail for us. He failed for Essex as well.

It really was 'last chance saloon time' before the penny dropped and he realised merely occupying the crease for long periods of time wasn't good enough.

Many of the departures (indeed the vast majority) mentioned on this thread were not bad decisions.

They were absolutely fair enough.

Rossington is one people like to mention. He's not better than Simpson. At best he might be considered to be about the same. No room for two keepers in the first team, so whatever he does for Northants doesn't make letting him go a bad decision.

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
Seaxe_man1 14 August, 2020 08:46
Both are county captain's so your opinion is not widely shared. Lacegate been on the horizon for awhile.

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
Deckchair 14 August, 2020 10:43
Middlesex has become an old man's club of unexceptional, dogged, low county make-dos and been here for evers who suffocate the top order with inept occupation rather than runs, put pressure on the tired and withering bowling troopers every game and appoint one of their most impressive failures and sparkless performers to lead them to an inglorious nowhere.
Tom Lace's exit is hardly surprising given what is around and before him. Many other young talent have made their escape before him. When your team is heading fast down the flush, you don't jump in after it, especially if its inexplicable left you benched and sidelined.
What on earth are you doing Middlesex?

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
adelaide 14 August, 2020 12:08
Quote:
Seaxe_man1
Shah was our best batter at that time and was instrumental in our only white ball win in 32 years in 2008. The regime of 2009 and since hasn't had a smell. Godleman went the same year and Tom Smith the next. Both still playing. There was a steady trickle then, now a flood which has reduced Mx to a comedy show on a par with the Keystone Kops. You still defend the undefendable chunky. The club is a mess.

Though the regime did have a smell of something more important in 2019.

I don't have my problem with the players who left until recent years. Some fade away, some succeed, some succeed after a further move. That's how it goes and we recruited players in return (Murtagh, Richo, Harris, Denly, Betts...) some of whom faded away...

What has happened in the last couple of years or so seems to be of a different order. I can see an argument for not recruiting in order to give your own young players a chance but not if you don't give them much of a chance and then "let" them leave. I put the word "let" in quotes because you cannot force a player to stay at the end of their contract, not necessarily do you have the finance to rival others, but the impression given is thatr the club really doesn't mind them going.

Look across the river and you have Borthwick, Stoneman, Foakes, Clark, Clarke (OK that was a swap with Sibley and he was one of their own), Topley, Overton. As it happens they have some very good youngsters too. Of course, their financial position is quite different to ours, which makes me wonder whether finance is at the root of this, or whether it is sheer stubbornness about the way we go about things.


Adelaide

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
freddie tittlemouse 14 August, 2020 12:11
Chunky, if you want to resurrect the Simpson/Rossington debate may I point out that Simpson is 32 and Rossington is 27. Who's still going to be keeping wicket in 3 years time?

On the subject of age, 5 of our front line pace bowlers will be over 30 by the end of the season. Not a promising statistic. When your go to bowler is 38 it's certainly food for thought.

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
Seaxe_man1 14 August, 2020 12:48
Stubbornness rules the roost Adelaide. Plus a massive contradiction. Stated a team of middx developed players is the goal. The moment they are, for whatever reason, sent on their way.

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
Seaxe_man1 14 August, 2020 12:52
In Lace's case Adelaide he was at the start of his contract which was in reality ' null and void'.

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
fivestar 14 August, 2020 15:25
Best career move Lace could of made. Wish him all the best in showing his Pedigree!

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
Sussex Seaxe 14 August, 2020 16:43
Quote:
adelaide
Let's just say that an exit interview with Gus to ascertain the root of the problem might not be the best way of getting the answers.

Adelaide
Which, of course, is precisely why I used the words 'someone other than Gus'!

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
Sussex Seaxe 14 August, 2020 16:47
Quote:
chunkyinargyll
No room for two keepers in the first team, .

England currently have three

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
Jonathan Winsky 14 August, 2020 21:25
The decision for Middlesex and Owais Shah to part ways after the 2010 season appeared to reap dividends for the club’s County Championship performances, as we bounced back from two successive second-bottom finishes to win the division two title in 2011 and to go on to permanently reside for the next six seasons in division one, which we of course won in 2016. However, I admit that many of our other departures since then haven’t looked so good from our point of view.

As other posters have touched on, although it is doubtful that Adam Rossington could have dislodged John Simpson as our wicket-keeper, Rossington could have still found a place in our side as a batsman. However, had he still been at the club, I am not sure whether he would have been a regular in the side in recent years or become close to taking the captaincy, which are two distinctions he has achieved at Northamptonshire.

Whenever the likes of Angus Fraser, Richard Goatley and Mike O’Farrell are asked at forums whether they feel regretful that the likes of Ryan Higgins and Harry Podmore are no longer at the club, they appear to be on a different page to supporters. Those with access to the members’ portal can hear Fraser and O’Farrell talk on this subject 35 minutes into the forum which took place on 30th April, in which Fraser said that some players perform better outside London, and O’Farrell made an analogy with the business world and said that people wouldn’t see it as being strange if someone left a company and did better at a new company. However, they didn’t show signs of feeling disappointed about the spate of player departures. Therefore, it is interesting to see and hear how disappointed Stuart Law feels about Tom Lace’s departure when he was asked about the subject 2 minutes 14 seconds into his preview of our match v Kent at Canterbury, in which he says “we moved Heaven and Earth to try and get him here and put him on a three-year contract”, so clearly we had to make a lot of effort - now in vain - to get him to sign a contract in the first place:


Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
Deckchair 15 August, 2020 09:07
If a young, very promising, Middlesex academy reared and nurtured cricketer like Tom Lace decides his career and cricket prospects are better served at another club, despite being offered a good contract by management, then it doesn't require Sherlock to point to something very rotten and wrong in the club set up and its direction.

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
chunkyinargyll 15 August, 2020 09:28
He was holding a gun to Stuart Law's head and saying, 'Pick me, or I'm off'.

Normally I've no problem with players leaving mid-season if they can't get a regular place in the side.

But that is because normally it is the final year of their contract and both sides have given it a go and concluded it's fair enough to let the player move on.

Lace signed a 3 year deal, taking him to October 2022. Inexplicably it looks like we daft enough to let him have a clause that let him leave if he wasn't in the first team. I doubt anyone thought he would invoke that at the earliest opportunity (not picked for first match against Surrey). Law was entitled to have a sort of a shoot off between Robson, Gubbins and Holden first and say to Lace, 'Don't worry You'll get your chance. One of them will make way for you'.

But not willing to wait even a couple of matches? I really do think the fault is far more with Lace. The whole reason we now don't have any experienced batting cover is precisely because we showed faith in him by clearing the decks (not replacing Malan) to ensure Lace did get a chance.

Anyway, leaving with over 2 years on your contract because the nasty man didn't pick you for the first match is pathetic from Lace. It's not all about him. Andersson also deserved a chance. I reckon he would have been the one to miss out if we had given in to Lace.

I get that maybe Fraser has been here too long, but I always look at each incident as a separate case. You can't have a 22 year old kid, no matter how talented picking the side.

That's Law's job.

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
antryg 15 August, 2020 10:37
You can't look at them separately. You have a number of cases over a period of years where the same thing is happening. If anything it has accelerated recently.

If the club was successful anyway no-one would be concerned but it is not. There is some poor decision making going on. We are losing a lot of talent and we need to change something to stop it happening.

It's like Mr Hand saying Tom Helm is great ....on England fringes etc... Steve Finn is brilliant bowls a Test match length.......How about their actual record in the county championship. Nope that doesn't get talked about.

I don't know but I wonder how their county records compare to Harry Podmore.

A sound process leads to good results. We need to change our approach this has been clear for quite some time.

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
dnb 15 August, 2020 12:34
Stuart Law selects the side not Tom Lace. However, given what has happened here, someone such as Richard Goatley should interview separately Tom Lace (if possible), Stuart Law and Gus Fraser to find out exactly what transpired and what the various reasons were. No organisation can afford to lose talented people and Middlesex should try to learn from this episode. Middlesex are the major losers from this...Tom Lace has secured a better contract with a first division county.

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
Seaxe_man1 15 August, 2020 16:39
Elsewhere. A cricket fan said and he had a point. What if our 30+ pace bowlers retire together which given age and injury go together can't be ruled out. Recall for Wayne Daniel?

Re: Tom Lace leaves - for Gloucs!
chunkyinargyll 15 August, 2020 16:52
Quote:
Seaxe_man1
Elsewhere. A cricket fan said and he had a point. What if our 30+ pace bowlers retire together which given age and injury go together can't be ruled out. Recall for Wayne Daniel?

what we do under those circumstances is sign Stuart Whittingham, Matt Taylor, David Payne and Josh Shaw- all from Gloucestershire.

I'm sure they wouldn't mind.

Actually, I'm not sure I really want any of the above- but how about a cheeky little Bid for Ben Charlesworth- the teenager who got 77 against us a couple of years ago. Handy all rounder. Could go far.

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