Somerset
Who will Rule the Roost?
By Grockle et al
October 8 2013
Marcus Trescothick finishes possibly his worst season in Somerset colours with some decisions to make about his professional life and career going into 2014. Many have offered their twopenneth and I thought I'd stick mine in the pot as well.
I believe that Marcus Trescothick is an honourable man and had circumstances been different he would have been one of the great (and I don't use the term lightly) English Test batsmen up to possibly a couple of seasons ago with records to his name and no need for a county captaincy until about now.
I have defended him more than once on here not because of his leadership ability but because of the crass way in which some posters have looked for a bandwagon of blame and jumped on it putting everything on the shoulders of the captain for want of putting forward a reasoned argument for a defeat. I do however share some of the reservations of the more measured critics, especially of his leadership in shorter format cricket.
At the time MT took over there was no other obvious candidate. He was well respected by his team because of his ability and integrity and he led a pretty confident squad with high hopes of future competition wins. That confidence and level of hope was not forthcoming in terms of trophies and press conferences did not illustrate that the skipper had an answer to the reason for this - in this he was definitely not alone. In one final I personally really question a major decision that I believe gave the pot to the other side - not without brilliant performances from some of them but nevertheless a captaincy error.
I still see no natural successor to Marcus presently within the squad for the start of 2014. I see other options for early 2014 but they are semi permanent 'patches' over the progression problem.
I think Pete Trego is too old to be starting the job and he has form issues he needs to sort first in the four day game. There is no doubting his commitment to the cause and I think people would follow him to the doors of hell but they'd probably do the same for Steve Kirby and he isn't the next captain either.
Alf would be ruled out as a long term replacement on the age front as well. He has a well proven record in short form cricket but will only play in all types of game while his form stays with him. Time marches on unfortunately.
I think Nick has not yet fully integrated (and probably never will) into Somerset in a way that makes him an acceptable captain at one level (though that isn't necessarily a bad thing). He would be a gamble and yet again, through age, a probable stop gap only.
We need a 'young' long term prospect for the next leader. James Hildreth did a good job in his short spell but seems to be reluctant and on that basis is not an option IMHO.
And so we come to Craig Kieswetter. Is he leadership material? I don't know but the only other option is to buy a proven skipper in. I don't think the team fully know either and so I think if there is to be a change it will be one that happens during the season next year and the spring may well see us with the same captain and a new vice captain in the keeper.. The problem that causes is that I am sure Craig still has very strong England aspirations, and why not? If his early form was good and MT's was poor.. then where are we?
I think the county will look to buy a skipper in if they can, hoping that will give some of the other young 'guns' time to stake a claim for the job. Lewis Gregory and possibly Chris Jones might then be candidates (if Chris takes the decision to make this a career in 2014) Craig Meschede might even be an outside choice. The time is probably not right for some of these players. George Dockrell has been groomed for some kind of leadership by his country -- is he an option for us? I have to admit my personal jury is out.
It is going to be an interesting winter......
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Discussion started by Grockles.com , 08/10/2013 14:31
Grockles.com
08/10/2013 14:31
08/10/2013 14:31
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:10:24:16:24:05 by Grockle.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:10:24:16:24:05 by Grockle.
First and foremost, I congratulate Grockle on a very measured article (one of the best contributions I have read on this site) - and one which avoids easy answers.
My own view is that it is difficult for outsiders to reach an informed view about the ability of most captains (let alone potential future captains). This is because much of the influence of a captain occurs off the field. For example, Mike Brearley is celebrated not so much for the astuteness of his field placing (or of batting orders or decisions when he won the toss) but much more for (for example) his apparent ability to bring the best out of characters such as Botham and Edmonds.
So, while I am happy to offer a view about the ability and potential of those I have seen (a sufficient number of times) bat, bowl or field, I am reluctant to do so for captains or potential captains.
A couple of general observations, however:
- overall, Somerset have , in my view, done remarkably well in the period since Marcus Trescothick became captain. I often marvel, when arriving by train at what is a relatively small town, that Taunton is able to sustain a team which can compete with the best
- MT certainly doesn't want for commitment or enthusiasm - quite the reverse when I have seen him
-these days, it is the exception rather than the rule for someone to captain a side for more than two or three years. This might suggest that, when the time comes for MT to hand over the reins, those who are in their thirties should not be ruled out on grounds of age.
My own view is that it is difficult for outsiders to reach an informed view about the ability of most captains (let alone potential future captains). This is because much of the influence of a captain occurs off the field. For example, Mike Brearley is celebrated not so much for the astuteness of his field placing (or of batting orders or decisions when he won the toss) but much more for (for example) his apparent ability to bring the best out of characters such as Botham and Edmonds.
So, while I am happy to offer a view about the ability and potential of those I have seen (a sufficient number of times) bat, bowl or field, I am reluctant to do so for captains or potential captains.
A couple of general observations, however:
- overall, Somerset have , in my view, done remarkably well in the period since Marcus Trescothick became captain. I often marvel, when arriving by train at what is a relatively small town, that Taunton is able to sustain a team which can compete with the best
- MT certainly doesn't want for commitment or enthusiasm - quite the reverse when I have seen him
-these days, it is the exception rather than the rule for someone to captain a side for more than two or three years. This might suggest that, when the time comes for MT to hand over the reins, those who are in their thirties should not be ruled out on grounds of age.
I am not sure that James is a reluctant captain, more that he was reluctant to carry on when the vice-captain, Alfonso came back from the Indian Premier League and that he felt he had little influence off the field of play.
He was a very successful captain of the England Lions and the responsibility seemed to have a positive effect on his own batting. I also have it on very good authority that the younger players, who were in the side because of all the injuries we had, really appreciated the help concern and support he gave them in difficult times. Remembering that our bowling attack is likely to be inexperienced, although highly promising, I can think of no-one better to be captain.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:10:08:17:17:29 by Tops.
He was a very successful captain of the England Lions and the responsibility seemed to have a positive effect on his own batting. I also have it on very good authority that the younger players, who were in the side because of all the injuries we had, really appreciated the help concern and support he gave them in difficult times. Remembering that our bowling attack is likely to be inexperienced, although highly promising, I can think of no-one better to be captain.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:10:08:17:17:29 by Tops.
Thank you Grockle for setting out in stark terms the size of the problem, or at least some of it.
For what it is worth I look at it from the other end of the telescope. I have posted these things before and IMO they are worth another airing.
Firstly, I have never accepted that before 2012 the "ship" skippered by BR and MT failed. The fact that silverware did not land on the honours table was incidental. When one looks at what was achieved by Langer/BR and immediately afterwards MT/BR was probably, IMO the envy of most of the other counties. Also MT in all situations led successfully from the front.
Unfortunately 2012 was a very tough time for MT injurywise, and perhaps is not a fair season to make judgements. However during the last season some of those of us who have been MTs greatest admirers, have witnessed events at the top of the order which have never occurred during MTs nearly twenty years of service. Only he can really judge or be clear, but for many of us, the new ball more than ever in present day cricket needs young eyes to handle it successfully and consistently. When his ankle problems, which must affect his stroke play, are added to the mix, clearly IMO something has to change.
From his public statements MT seems determined not to give up his openers role. If that is to be the case, then IMO the captaincy should be a burden taken from his shoulders so that 110% of his attention can be put into the openers role.
However, if wiser counsels should prevail, and he could be persuaded to drop down the order (IMO to avoid the worst of the new ball) I personally would be delighted to see him carry on as skipper for as long as he feels he wants the job. Further I would be happy for PT or JH to become the Vice-Captain, because I think either of them would respond positively to the promotion.
For what it is worth I look at it from the other end of the telescope. I have posted these things before and IMO they are worth another airing.
Firstly, I have never accepted that before 2012 the "ship" skippered by BR and MT failed. The fact that silverware did not land on the honours table was incidental. When one looks at what was achieved by Langer/BR and immediately afterwards MT/BR was probably, IMO the envy of most of the other counties. Also MT in all situations led successfully from the front.
Unfortunately 2012 was a very tough time for MT injurywise, and perhaps is not a fair season to make judgements. However during the last season some of those of us who have been MTs greatest admirers, have witnessed events at the top of the order which have never occurred during MTs nearly twenty years of service. Only he can really judge or be clear, but for many of us, the new ball more than ever in present day cricket needs young eyes to handle it successfully and consistently. When his ankle problems, which must affect his stroke play, are added to the mix, clearly IMO something has to change.
From his public statements MT seems determined not to give up his openers role. If that is to be the case, then IMO the captaincy should be a burden taken from his shoulders so that 110% of his attention can be put into the openers role.
However, if wiser counsels should prevail, and he could be persuaded to drop down the order (IMO to avoid the worst of the new ball) I personally would be delighted to see him carry on as skipper for as long as he feels he wants the job. Further I would be happy for PT or JH to become the Vice-Captain, because I think either of them would respond positively to the promotion.
I think Marcus seems every bit as keen, Old Boy, on hanging onto the captaincy as he does to remain an opener.
I was going to come on and post something said by Strauss in response to Warne's criticism of A N Cook in tonight's Evening Standard, but Wickham has already made the identical point.
I was going to come on and post something said by Strauss in response to Warne's criticism of A N Cook in tonight's Evening Standard, but Wickham has already made the identical point.
All the preceding postings are an illustration of this fine site behaving at its best - and when it is good it is very good indeed.
With little knowledge of what is really happening or of whethere MT's loss of form is permanent or merely a (longish) blip, I am in no position to write with any authority. But as a long term supporter I am bound to have some preferences.
I should actually like MT to remain in chargle and at the top of the order for another season, but only if he, his team, the support staff and the executive are entirely happy that he should do so - and with the proviso that if runs do not flow from his bat in the early matches of next season he agrees to take appropriate steps.
Much has been said about Hildreth's apparent diffidencee about taking on the captaincy, but it should be noted that his brief experience of leadership was two or three seasons back and he is at the stage of his life when he is moving from being a very skilled young man to a seasoned professional - and I have seen absolutely no evidence that he would still demonstrate any reluctance if offered they captaincy on a full time basis.
LoL
Sixty-six Seasons a Somerset Supporter
With little knowledge of what is really happening or of whethere MT's loss of form is permanent or merely a (longish) blip, I am in no position to write with any authority. But as a long term supporter I am bound to have some preferences.
I should actually like MT to remain in chargle and at the top of the order for another season, but only if he, his team, the support staff and the executive are entirely happy that he should do so - and with the proviso that if runs do not flow from his bat in the early matches of next season he agrees to take appropriate steps.
Much has been said about Hildreth's apparent diffidencee about taking on the captaincy, but it should be noted that his brief experience of leadership was two or three seasons back and he is at the stage of his life when he is moving from being a very skilled young man to a seasoned professional - and I have seen absolutely no evidence that he would still demonstrate any reluctance if offered they captaincy on a full time basis.
LoL
Sixty-six Seasons a Somerset Supporter
LoL - the incident to which people refer ref:Hildreth was in 2012 so I suppose it is now 1.5 seasons back although only about 15 months ago.
In any event the point seemed to be not that Hildreth did not want to be Captain but that he was not enthusiastic about the idea of having one on-field skipper and a different one (still Tres) off the field.
I think it was also the case that he was about to be relieved of the on-field part of the job for the (then) impending T20 - Alf was probably going to be given that job although the club's official public stance was that 'Hildreth will be Captain until the start of the T20 when the position will be reviewed'.
In any event the point seemed to be not that Hildreth did not want to be Captain but that he was not enthusiastic about the idea of having one on-field skipper and a different one (still Tres) off the field.
I think it was also the case that he was about to be relieved of the on-field part of the job for the (then) impending T20 - Alf was probably going to be given that job although the club's official public stance was that 'Hildreth will be Captain until the start of the T20 when the position will be reviewed'.
The name of the person who would, or might, be expected to have most influence over who leads out the team next year hasn't yet been mentioned. I mean, of course, Dave Nosworthy.
The slight excess of commas in my first sentence is indicative of how little I (and anyone with whom I have exchanged views) know of DN. There were early indications that he might be quite accessible, but no. The twitter trickle of homely sayings maybe told us a little but that has now dried up. I heard something said in the radio commentary during the Middlesex match that gave cause for concern and, as I pointed out elsewhere, George Dobell pointed at DN rather than MT when discussing our unsatisfactory season.
I am in awe of Marcus both as a man and a cricketer, but a cat may look at a king. My opinion is that it is time for Marcus to let go the reins of captaincy but continue to play. His slip catches alone brighten the days, but those cover drives! Either JH or NC to follow at the helm, I suspect it may be the latter.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:10:09:00:35:13 by Casomer.
The slight excess of commas in my first sentence is indicative of how little I (and anyone with whom I have exchanged views) know of DN. There were early indications that he might be quite accessible, but no. The twitter trickle of homely sayings maybe told us a little but that has now dried up. I heard something said in the radio commentary during the Middlesex match that gave cause for concern and, as I pointed out elsewhere, George Dobell pointed at DN rather than MT when discussing our unsatisfactory season.
I am in awe of Marcus both as a man and a cricketer, but a cat may look at a king. My opinion is that it is time for Marcus to let go the reins of captaincy but continue to play. His slip catches alone brighten the days, but those cover drives! Either JH or NC to follow at the helm, I suspect it may be the latter.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:10:09:00:35:13 by Casomer.
Have posted many times on this, so will just restrict my thoughts to say that Trigger at 32 can hardly be considered too old. He would surely hope to play for at least another 5 years ?
Unless my memory is failing me (entirely possible), I don't think many of the esteemed names on this list became skipper much before age 30:
[en.wikipedia.org]
I take the point re his form, but what have we to lose giving him the opportunity for a year ?
Trigger's Internation career has been too short & we have blamed the selectors for not having confidence in someone we know can perform & who thrives on responsibility.
Give him the chance to see what he can do.
Grizzzly
Unless my memory is failing me (entirely possible), I don't think many of the esteemed names on this list became skipper much before age 30:
[en.wikipedia.org]
I take the point re his form, but what have we to lose giving him the opportunity for a year ?
Trigger's Internation career has been too short & we have blamed the selectors for not having confidence in someone we know can perform & who thrives on responsibility.
Give him the chance to see what he can do.
Grizzzly
As for DN?
He seems to have been able to induce BETTER performances from our younger players and WORSE performances from our senior players.
Though, in both cases, that may be putting too much of an emphasis on his contribution....maybe the young players would have improved anyway, maybe Tres would have struggled anyway and maybe the combined poor form of Tres and Arul and the consequent number of poor starts piled too much pressure on senior men like Hildreth and Trego?
He seems to have been able to induce BETTER performances from our younger players and WORSE performances from our senior players.
Though, in both cases, that may be putting too much of an emphasis on his contribution....maybe the young players would have improved anyway, maybe Tres would have struggled anyway and maybe the combined poor form of Tres and Arul and the consequent number of poor starts piled too much pressure on senior men like Hildreth and Trego?
Yes, AG, I agree on the dried up stream, and with you on the speculation as to the causes of the ups and downs. But there again it is difficult to disagree with speculation.
However it is presumably self-evident that the DoC is employed to improve overall performance, and while it ain't been all bad, overall it ain't been as good, either.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:10:09:06:48:17 by Casomer.
However it is presumably self-evident that the DoC is employed to improve overall performance, and while it ain't been all bad, overall it ain't been as good, either.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:10:09:06:48:17 by Casomer.
The only sensible, grown up option would be Nick Compton.
Of course I'd love to see Trigger get the job, but somehow I just can't see it.
Like it or not, captains, just like managers are judged by results in the modern game, and let's be honest, cleaning the contents of our trophy cabinet doesn't tax the cleaners too much of a morning.
Does it?
Of course I'd love to see Trigger get the job, but somehow I just can't see it.
Like it or not, captains, just like managers are judged by results in the modern game, and let's be honest, cleaning the contents of our trophy cabinet doesn't tax the cleaners too much of a morning.
Does it?
My views on the captaincy is know and other aspects on Marcus's position so I will not say them again.
My point here is some say have we got anybody good enough to replace him, we just don't know unless we try somebody else we will never know. The proof of the pudding is in the eating so they say.
I think James would still do it if he got all the what goes with it on and off the field.
Alfonso I think did a good job in the one day matches, he wasn't afraid to stray from the norm.
Craig K is untried but like I said we will not know if he would be good at it until he does the job and that can be said about any other player.
My point here is some say have we got anybody good enough to replace him, we just don't know unless we try somebody else we will never know. The proof of the pudding is in the eating so they say.
I think James would still do it if he got all the what goes with it on and off the field.
Alfonso I think did a good job in the one day matches, he wasn't afraid to stray from the norm.
Craig K is untried but like I said we will not know if he would be good at it until he does the job and that can be said about any other player.
I wonder if we might go down the route of having two captains.
One for OD games and another for CC matches?
Other counties and countries have tried it to some success.
It would relieve the pressure on one individual.
One for OD games and another for CC matches?
Other counties and countries have tried it to some success.
It would relieve the pressure on one individual.
BJ - by "sensible and grown up", do you mean, by that, the only option that a cricket committee might go for?
If of course we follow your seeming assumption that that is what is used to pick a captain.
If it is based on the other aspects a leader might need I'm not personally sure it is such a 'nailed on' 'grown up' decision.
If it is based on the other aspects a leader might need I'm not personally sure it is such a 'nailed on' 'grown up' decision.
Of course what probably none of us know first-hand, is how players behave around their peers. Maybe one who we believe might be good, doesn't have the respect of his peers, or he might not impress the management with his leadership skills?
Pete's a lovely fella but has he got too many tattoos? ;-)
Pete's a lovely fella but has he got too many tattoos? ;-)
Yeah, I meant BJ that you've said you'd love to see Pete get the role but that NC would be the "sensible and grown-up option".
Is that because you think there's no chance the club would consider Pete?
Is that because you think there's no chance the club would consider Pete?
It's a fair point Botham (first one not so much the tats one)
The younger guys give an impression from social media that they are a tight knit group but the older players seem a little more disparate (as you would probably expect).
There is more to captaincy than just the on field stuff and as you say the further from there you go the less we know about how the squad interact.
The younger guys give an impression from social media that they are a tight knit group but the older players seem a little more disparate (as you would probably expect).
There is more to captaincy than just the on field stuff and as you say the further from there you go the less we know about how the squad interact.
It's also a fair point made above that DN remains strangley anonymous.
Does anyone - much closer geographically than I am - feel they 'know' the man & what his values, aspirations & methods are re turning the SCCC ship around ?
I've read one or two articles making reference to bringing on our own youngsters (entirely agree), but I've seen nothing reflecting what DN's views are on our season, the reasons for our relative under performance & how he is intending to change things moving forward.
Grizzzly
Does anyone - much closer geographically than I am - feel they 'know' the man & what his values, aspirations & methods are re turning the SCCC ship around ?
I've read one or two articles making reference to bringing on our own youngsters (entirely agree), but I've seen nothing reflecting what DN's views are on our season, the reasons for our relative under performance & how he is intending to change things moving forward.
Grizzzly
I'd love to see Pete given the job, but I just have a feeling Nick is more "to the manor born" as it were.
As Rob has suggested, maybe there's a case to be made for different captains for different formats, in which case Pete could be given the role in the one dayers.
One things is certain in my mind, change is essential.
As Rob has suggested, maybe there's a case to be made for different captains for different formats, in which case Pete could be given the role in the one dayers.
One things is certain in my mind, change is essential.
Compo is one of the few nailed on starters in the CC but his value to the one day side is questionable. Trego is MVP to the one day side but his place looks vulnerable to a host of suitors in the CC. Solution? Whilst much of the captains role is off the field,the skipper must be worthy of his place on it.
Doesn't get easier does it? "Change" in a number of areas is probably essential BJ.
Oh . . . Right! My mistake.
But if he were available all season. . . . .
But if he were available all season. . . . .
Would love him except that he is a flaming Sri Lankan and they struggle to play cricket in Somerset in an English summer!!
Not sure Dilshan should be tarred with the Jayasuriya brush, to be honest, Grockle.
I wouldn't tar Sangakkara with that brush because I think he's more of a solid type PLUS he's already done it with Warks in an early season.
Not sure about Dilshan in that respect although I think he DID have a decent tour to England in May/June last time around?
Not sure about Dilshan in that respect although I think he DID have a decent tour to England in May/June last time around?
I've come a bit late to this thread but surely Hildreth is the obvious choice for captain. The powers that be thought him good enough to captain the Lions and he did a decent job in 2012 with a bowling attack which consisted of Trego and 3 or 4 lads just out of school!! When he continued for one match after Alfonso had returned and then handed over the captaincy the most reasonable explanation seemed to me to be that it gave Alfonso a chance to take a look at the youngsters from a neutral position as it were. I concede that that is speculation on my part but Hildreth would be my choice unless of course the job has been promised to someone else.
Coming late to this thread simply because my computer refuses to let me sign in so I have to grab my son's when he's at work:
I tend to think a change of captaincy would be a good thing, though I'm aware, unlike some, that it's a very subtle question with all sorts of possible solutions.
My preferred option would, I think, be Hildreth. I'm afraid BJ's view that this makes me an immature fool blinded by past glories leaves me unswayed.
I tend to think a change of captaincy would be a good thing, though I'm aware, unlike some, that it's a very subtle question with all sorts of possible solutions.
My preferred option would, I think, be Hildreth. I'm afraid BJ's view that this makes me an immature fool blinded by past glories leaves me unswayed.
Changing captain during a transition is bit of a risk though isn't it. Ideally, I'd like to see Tresco move to 5 and captain in the cc with maybe a vice captain who is being groomed to take over. I'd pick Hildreth as his successor but his form as not been good over the past couple of years.
I actually think Tresco has done well to get us to finals, the events on the day are not always down to him alone.
There was a rumour around on cricinfo that Compton is lined up for it. (they were right on Buttler going to Lancs while most others reckoned Warks.).
I actually think Tresco has done well to get us to finals, the events on the day are not always down to him alone.
There was a rumour around on cricinfo that Compton is lined up for it. (they were right on Buttler going to Lancs while most others reckoned Warks.).
Twice James has been made captain and twice the news from the trenches has been encouraging and twice his services have not been retained. Until someone gives me decent reason for that I can't see him as a natural successor myself I'm afraid.
My knowledge and experience of the parties involved is more limited than most, if not all, on this thread, and I have therefore been reluctant to post my thoughts. However a number of things seem clear to me:
First, Dave Nosworthy needs to be given time to make his mark.
Second, specialist batting and bowling coaches are needed.
Third, a four years captaincy is a long stint by contemporary standards, notwithstanding MT's age.
Fourth, for the club to continue to be successful across all formats, different captains might be better for CC and one day matches.
My choice would be for Hildreth as CC captain - Nick Compton appears to have become a bit introverted since his brush with Giles, Miller et al. Trego would make a fine one day captain. I think Marcus Trescothick should to bat wherever he feels happiest, and he should become the batting coach. I also think that Steve Kirby would make an excellent bowling coach.
With two new coaches, I'm afraid I don't see the need for a head coach; I can see no reason why the specialist coaches could not be responsible directly to Dave Nosworthy.
First, Dave Nosworthy needs to be given time to make his mark.
Second, specialist batting and bowling coaches are needed.
Third, a four years captaincy is a long stint by contemporary standards, notwithstanding MT's age.
Fourth, for the club to continue to be successful across all formats, different captains might be better for CC and one day matches.
My choice would be for Hildreth as CC captain - Nick Compton appears to have become a bit introverted since his brush with Giles, Miller et al. Trego would make a fine one day captain. I think Marcus Trescothick should to bat wherever he feels happiest, and he should become the batting coach. I also think that Steve Kirby would make an excellent bowling coach.
With two new coaches, I'm afraid I don't see the need for a head coach; I can see no reason why the specialist coaches could not be responsible directly to Dave Nosworthy.
Much to agree with NBJ,though i might take issue with 2 points.
First, my observation is that Compo has actually become more integrated within the team in the last few week of the season.
Also I feel that Trigger is so important to the one day team that adding the pressure of captaincy might be killing he goose that lays so many golden eggs. Also it always appears to me (and i believe he may have said as much) that he performs at his best, particularly with the bat, when he does not really have to think too much. Maybe not the best credential for captaincy.
First, my observation is that Compo has actually become more integrated within the team in the last few week of the season.
Also I feel that Trigger is so important to the one day team that adding the pressure of captaincy might be killing he goose that lays so many golden eggs. Also it always appears to me (and i believe he may have said as much) that he performs at his best, particularly with the bat, when he does not really have to think too much. Maybe not the best credential for captaincy.
I've not posted on this thread before because I wanted to wait until I had time to do so properly, and until my thoughts were clear. Unfortunately, I'm not sure about the latter, tho Downton is on TV, so I have plenty of time!
I feel that Marcus appears (from my considerable distance) to often make odd decisions - when to bat / bowl, declare, enforce the follow-on and so on. I fear these are becoming increasingly questionable - in particular, it seems to me these have become more frequent this year, especially in having unreasonably strong faith in our batsmen to withstand conditions favourable to good bowlers.
Because of this, as I see it, I'd be in favour of a new captain. Marcus may then be better suited to continuing at the top of the order - where I don't feel we are yet strong enough to replace him (depending who we take on over the winter).I would have no problem if he himself decided to move to 4 or 5, as long as we had a Petersen or similar to cover 1-3 with Jones and Compton.
Any replacement will be a risk - I don't think there is a guaranteed-success new captain. I've said before my choice would be Kieswetter - he's entrenched in both CC and one-day line-ups, appears to me to know the game and the club pretty well and, though I know there are exceptions, bats well for the team. Captaincy may curb those rushes of blood to the head in the last over of a session!
I had assumed Hildreth didn't want the captaincy. If my assumption is wrong, I'd be happy with James taking on the captaincy. He's experienced, an adopted son of Somerset and did well for a while when Tres was injured. He's also reasonably certain of his position in all forms of the game.
If Nick was captain for CC only, that may be OK, tho he may be too introverted. I wouldn't have Alfie or Tregs as captain, for any form of the game, tho I respect them enormously as players and for what they have done / continue to do for the county. I don't like a bowler captain, for all sorts of reasons.
I would also consider a split captaincy for CC and one-day / T20 cricket - CK/JH for the former and MT/CK/JH for the latter.
All in all, my preferences (probably) are:
CC captain: CK or JH
OD/T20 captain: MT, CK or JH
Overseas player: AP or better (top order batsman, not bowler)!
Marcus to bat at: 1, or 5 (if we sign AP or new top-order bat)
First-choice spinner: Leach
Batting coach in waiting: MT
Bowling coach in waiting: SK
Trophies won: CC, then T20, then new/old-fangled 50-over thing.
There may be lots of holes and inconsistencies in the above thoughts - oh well...beats watching Downton anyway.
I feel that Marcus appears (from my considerable distance) to often make odd decisions - when to bat / bowl, declare, enforce the follow-on and so on. I fear these are becoming increasingly questionable - in particular, it seems to me these have become more frequent this year, especially in having unreasonably strong faith in our batsmen to withstand conditions favourable to good bowlers.
Because of this, as I see it, I'd be in favour of a new captain. Marcus may then be better suited to continuing at the top of the order - where I don't feel we are yet strong enough to replace him (depending who we take on over the winter).I would have no problem if he himself decided to move to 4 or 5, as long as we had a Petersen or similar to cover 1-3 with Jones and Compton.
Any replacement will be a risk - I don't think there is a guaranteed-success new captain. I've said before my choice would be Kieswetter - he's entrenched in both CC and one-day line-ups, appears to me to know the game and the club pretty well and, though I know there are exceptions, bats well for the team. Captaincy may curb those rushes of blood to the head in the last over of a session!
I had assumed Hildreth didn't want the captaincy. If my assumption is wrong, I'd be happy with James taking on the captaincy. He's experienced, an adopted son of Somerset and did well for a while when Tres was injured. He's also reasonably certain of his position in all forms of the game.
If Nick was captain for CC only, that may be OK, tho he may be too introverted. I wouldn't have Alfie or Tregs as captain, for any form of the game, tho I respect them enormously as players and for what they have done / continue to do for the county. I don't like a bowler captain, for all sorts of reasons.
I would also consider a split captaincy for CC and one-day / T20 cricket - CK/JH for the former and MT/CK/JH for the latter.
All in all, my preferences (probably) are:
CC captain: CK or JH
OD/T20 captain: MT, CK or JH
Overseas player: AP or better (top order batsman, not bowler)!
Marcus to bat at: 1, or 5 (if we sign AP or new top-order bat)
First-choice spinner: Leach
Batting coach in waiting: MT
Bowling coach in waiting: SK
Trophies won: CC, then T20, then new/old-fangled 50-over thing.
There may be lots of holes and inconsistencies in the above thoughts - oh well...beats watching Downton anyway.
I think you've also hit on something else Shepton.
As the obsession with Downton Abbey seems to be universal and global, it is the perfect time each week for measured assessment of the pros and cons of Somerset debate. Think it out through the week and post at whatever time is 'Downton' time in your part of the world.
For those of you also afflicted by this unfathomable obsession - there are always the box sets so give up the time for your county. It isn't real and it CAN wait. This is and it can't
As the obsession with Downton Abbey seems to be universal and global, it is the perfect time each week for measured assessment of the pros and cons of Somerset debate. Think it out through the week and post at whatever time is 'Downton' time in your part of the world.
For those of you also afflicted by this unfathomable obsession - there are always the box sets so give up the time for your county. It isn't real and it CAN wait. This is and it can't
I have never watched even 1 minute of Downton. Am I missing something important?
Ex pats, Americans and Arabs seem to love it. Must be a taste of home that never existed then.
They have Downton Abbey parties here where everyone dresses up and meets at a house to eat and watch the next episode.... I live in a strange part of the world.
They have Downton Abbey parties here where everyone dresses up and meets at a house to eat and watch the next episode.... I live in a strange part of the world.
This thread appears to have been hijacked - I came on expecting erudite responses to my post and views on Tres' field placings, and there's a load of bunkum about this TV programme my wife watches. I blame Grockle, mostly.
Well you have left your comment until Downton time and it is so well thought out that no-one has anything to say for or against it SP - see my theory works!!
It is a subject that has been debated to death. The candidates seem pretty much set and we just have to await events now - the only spanner in the works that I can see is if DN has an international skipper plan waiting in the wings. If he does, one would expect the VC appointment to be a decent indicator of who is expected to be the long term successor.
It is a subject that has been debated to death. The candidates seem pretty much set and we just have to await events now - the only spanner in the works that I can see is if DN has an international skipper plan waiting in the wings. If he does, one would expect the VC appointment to be a decent indicator of who is expected to be the long term successor.
I will say one thing, SP: If we were going to split the captaincy, I'd rather leave Tres with the first-class leg of it, not the one-day stuff.
Reason being that I feel Tres often seems to lack flexibility with bowling changes etc in the one-day stuff -seems to come up with an off-field plan and then almost always stick to it on the field come what may.
Conversely, whereas there do appear to have been a number of CC toss decisions that back-fired last season, I do have sympathy for a Captain when so many batsmen are all out of form at once.... when you get conditions where you think a pitch is just going to get worse but you know that there will be something in it early on for the opposing bowlers AND your batsmen are in no sort of form?
Who'd be a Captain then?
Reason being that I feel Tres often seems to lack flexibility with bowling changes etc in the one-day stuff -seems to come up with an off-field plan and then almost always stick to it on the field come what may.
Conversely, whereas there do appear to have been a number of CC toss decisions that back-fired last season, I do have sympathy for a Captain when so many batsmen are all out of form at once.... when you get conditions where you think a pitch is just going to get worse but you know that there will be something in it early on for the opposing bowlers AND your batsmen are in no sort of form?
Who'd be a Captain then?
I thought Downton played for England, Kent and Middlesex. Did he subsequently become a monk?
LoL
Sixty-six Seasons a Somerset Supporter
LoL
Sixty-six Seasons a Somerset Supporter
This Upstairs Downton Duke Street Revisited thing seems to be all the rage and I must watch it on my wireless some time.
LoL
Sixty-six Seasons a Somerset Supporter
LoL
Sixty-six Seasons a Somerset Supporter
I've never watched Downton, partly because I was an extra on the new Upstairs Downstairs and feel a bit wrong supporting the competition, but mainly because I think it's probably quite bad. (And if it's no better than the new UD ended up, that's bad).
Like the theme tune though. 'When Strauss has gone and you're in need of an opener, you can always call ...'
Like the theme tune though. 'When Strauss has gone and you're in need of an opener, you can always call ...'
But it's an "epic multi Emmy winning British period drama" according to the OSN speil in the Middle East. The colonial ex-pats are rabid for it; Aussies, Saffers, Americans - you name 'em
Touching, however, on the real issue for a moment - I do think a change of captain would probably be a good thing. There isn't a clear and obvious choice but my preference would be Hildreth provided he is unambiguously confident on his own part that he wants the job. Second choice would be Kieswetter.
That said, I'll of course be delighted if Nick gets it and turns out a quarter the success that the unfancied Brian Rose did in 1978.
I had an interesting conversation in the Vivary Arms earlier this evening with a chap whose own, distinctly left-field, suggestion was:
1) Hildreth for CC and 50-over captain with CK as vice, unless JH is unwilling in which case CK for captain;
2) T20 captain, Max Waller!
Let's hear it from OB.
That said, I'll of course be delighted if Nick gets it and turns out a quarter the success that the unfancied Brian Rose did in 1978.
I had an interesting conversation in the Vivary Arms earlier this evening with a chap whose own, distinctly left-field, suggestion was:
1) Hildreth for CC and 50-over captain with CK as vice, unless JH is unwilling in which case CK for captain;
2) T20 captain, Max Waller!
Let's hear it from OB.
Well my wife and I both enjoy it.
Although I did enjoy it more before Lady Sybil's untimely demise.
Although I did enjoy it more before Lady Sybil's untimely demise.
Quote:mikeindex
Touching, however, on the real issue for a moment - I do think a change of captain would probably be a good thing. There isn't a clear and obvious choice but my preference would be Hildreth provided he is unambiguously confident on his own part that he wants the job. Second choice would be Kieswetter.
That said, I'll of course be delighted if Nick gets it and turns out a quarter the success that the unfancied Brian Rose did in 1978.
I had an interesting conversation in the Vivary Arms earlier this evening with a chap whose own, distinctly left-field, suggestion was:
1) Hildreth for CC and 50-over captain with CK as vice, unless JH is unwilling in which case CK for captain;
2) T20 captain, Max Waller!
Let's hear it from OB.
Why only the T20???
and mine - hope he is spending the winter on his batting skills. We could do with the cover and he could do with a recognised second skill. Max "Arul" Waller would not be a bad addition.
I am led to understand that some people at the club are anxious that there should be a change of captain to the team, with James Hildreth at the helm and Craig Kieswetter as his deputy being the favoured option.
However, it is further understood that Marcus Trescothick is determined to hold onto the reins at all cost.
A change of captain would be in the best interests of the club in my opinion, but will the club be bold enough to initiate such a move should they truly consider it to be the right thing to do?
However, it is further understood that Marcus Trescothick is determined to hold onto the reins at all cost.
A change of captain would be in the best interests of the club in my opinion, but will the club be bold enough to initiate such a move should they truly consider it to be the right thing to do?
To be honest, I suspect that if there was going to be a change it would probably have already been announced along with the change to the coaching set-up as one would assume that both the coaching and the captaincy were part of the same end-of-season review.
So I'm not anticipating a change unless and until the club decides that Marcus is no longer worth a place as batsman.
Would the club be brave enough to remove Marcus from the captaincy against his will? I have some doubts.
So I'm not anticipating a change unless and until the club decides that Marcus is no longer worth a place as batsman.
Would the club be brave enough to remove Marcus from the captaincy against his will? I have some doubts.
It will be a great pity if struggles off the pitch become an issue. We've had enough challenges on the field.
All will come out in the wash I suppose. Just hope the laundry doesn't get too dirty along the way.
Grizzzly
All will come out in the wash I suppose. Just hope the laundry doesn't get too dirty along the way.
Grizzzly
Dave Nosworthy commented at a recent area AGM that the whole issue of the captaincy would be resolved within two months, a decision had yet to be taken.
The reason I asked is because 'if' in the post context does not relate to the existence of struggles but whether they will have an effect or not Grizzz.
I find Palairet's observation interesting having been to the Bath and Wilts AGM last night.
Dave Nosworthy was asked about the captaincy. He said that no decision had yet been made, but added that Marcus was obviously a leading candidate. He did mention over the evening that(half jokingly) Marcus could not be captain for ever. He also mentioned the time that everyone including Marcus had had to give on a number of issues such as the wicket-keeper dilemma and dealing with Nick C's disappointment at being left out by England and there was a suggestion that may have affected Marcus's batting.
I hope I have remembered the gist of the remarks accurately, perhaps any other grocklees who were there could confirm, but certainly I did not get the impression that the captaincy was all done and dusted.
Dave Nosworthy was asked about the captaincy. He said that no decision had yet been made, but added that Marcus was obviously a leading candidate. He did mention over the evening that(half jokingly) Marcus could not be captain for ever. He also mentioned the time that everyone including Marcus had had to give on a number of issues such as the wicket-keeper dilemma and dealing with Nick C's disappointment at being left out by England and there was a suggestion that may have affected Marcus's batting.
I hope I have remembered the gist of the remarks accurately, perhaps any other grocklees who were there could confirm, but certainly I did not get the impression that the captaincy was all done and dusted.
Thank you for that Tops. It's good to see that it is being carefully considered and not rushed because it needs that.
Thanks to following on and Tops.
Clearly my assumption re: the captaincy and coaching being considered as part of the same review was erroneous.
Well done also to DN for being prepared to publicly give a time-frame for a decision.
Clearly my assumption re: the captaincy and coaching being considered as part of the same review was erroneous.
Well done also to DN for being prepared to publicly give a time-frame for a decision.
Will SCCC be the first club in history to remove the captaincy from a playwer against his will who had a stand named after him during the aforesaid captaincy?
My views on naming things after current players need no rehearsing here.
My views on naming things after current players need no rehearsing here.
All I would like to add is having listened to Dave Nosworthy at the recent South Somerset and Dorset area AGM, I was hugely impressed by how he came across. He spoke candidly and passionately about all things Somerset. He made it very plain that this is a make or break year for a lot of the playing staff, as demonstrated by the number of one year contract extentions. I think the recent changes in structure are his doing and he certainly presents as a man with a steely streak, not afraid to make difficult decisions.
Does anyone else who has been to an area AGM share this view?
I would urge anyone who can get to an area AGM to go!
Does anyone else who has been to an area AGM share this view?
I would urge anyone who can get to an area AGM to go!
I must have missed that detail on who only had a one year contract extension? I know Max did he only ever get a one year contract these days.
I think a few senior players have only one year remaining.
I think a few senior players have only one year remaining.
Anyone know which players contracts expire at the end of the 2014 season ?
Will be interesting to watch their progress as the days tick by.
Grizzzly
Will be interesting to watch their progress as the days tick by.
Grizzzly
Nick Compton,Tom Abell, Alex Barrow, Adam Dibble, Lewis Gregory, Chris Jones, Steven Kirby, Jack Leach, and Max Waller, all signed contract extensions in August this year but dont for how long.
Craig Meschede and Alfonso had 2 year extensions at the end of last year , so may be up at the end of 2014.
And the Overtons have new 3 year contracts.
Think CK has 2 years left but not sure on Tres and Tregs
Craig Meschede and Alfonso had 2 year extensions at the end of last year , so may be up at the end of 2014.
And the Overtons have new 3 year contracts.
Think CK has 2 years left but not sure on Tres and Tregs
Nick C is on a new three year contract from the end of this season.
Edit - Peter Trego three years from the start of this year (2013).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:15:15:28:59 by Mike TA1.
Edit - Peter Trego three years from the start of this year (2013).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:15:15:28:59 by Mike TA1.
It was announced in May 2011 (odd time) that James Hildreth has signed a three year contract.
This could mean next season is that last of the three years.??
This could mean next season is that last of the three years.??
The sooner a final decision is made regarding the captaincy for 2014, the better in my opinion.
It would be preferable for the playing squad to know now that they have resumed training.
It would be preferable for the playing squad to know now that they have resumed training.
I doubt there will be any captain based input for the squad until after the December break but it would be useful to start 2014 with the decision made.
From the tweeting members of the side the indication is that the present training is individual fitness based. Strategic stuff will come in the spring one would assume.
From the tweeting members of the side the indication is that the present training is individual fitness based. Strategic stuff will come in the spring one would assume.
"individual fitness", "strategy"... I wonder if they'll be working on their cricket skills at any stage.
LoL
Sixty-six Seasons a Somerset Supporter
LoL
Sixty-six Seasons a Somerset Supporter
I would assume that they will be working on their individual cricket skills all the time - wouldn't that be taken as read as they are professional cricketers?
One certainly hopes so.
LoL
Sixty-six Seasons a Somerset Supporter
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:18:17:26:53 by Loyal of Lhasa..
LoL
Sixty-six Seasons a Somerset Supporter
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:18:17:26:53 by Loyal of Lhasa..
But a captain's input to the whole has less to do with skills and more to do with strategy doesn't it?
So one would assume that it would come in once the members of the squad were back to match fitness after the holidays, etc and on the way to being considered for the first team.
Hence in 2014 not 2013
So one would assume that it would come in once the members of the squad were back to match fitness after the holidays, etc and on the way to being considered for the first team.
Hence in 2014 not 2013
Well Craig, Alfie, Alviro and Tregs all on another continent for large parts of if not all of Dec/Jan so that won't help if any of those are in contention.
Good point WSM - looks like it will be later rather than sooner. Having said that intercontinental communication is a little better than it used to be - as this post proves I suppose.
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